TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION
AMNESTY HEARING
DATE: 20TH NOVEMBER 2000
NAME: MANUEL ANTONIO OLIFANT
APPLICATION NO: AM4032/96
MATTER: BOTSWANA RAID (CONT)
HELD AT: JISS CENTRE, MAYFAIR, JOHANNESBURG
DAY: 4
---------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. The Panel in this matter has assembled now to continue this application and when we last adjourned it was for reasons of compassion, in order to allow one of the applicants, Mr Olifant, to make certain personal arrangements, and his application is the only one that now needs to be dealt with. Are the representatives the same people who were here the last time? Yes Mr Visser.
MR VISSER: Chairperson, it's Mr Coetser I think, my innings is over. I'm eight for ten wickets, as it were, so it's Mr Coetser to go on now.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I asked him to continue.
MR COETSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, before we proceed with the present application, there is another matter which is on the Commission's roll for this week, that is the applicantion by Mr Olifant in relation to an incident concerning Rev Chikane. I would like to place on record at this moment in time, for the convenience of the Commission, that that application is withdrawn.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Coetser. Mr Coetser, are you calling Mr Olifant in respect of the Botswana Raid?
MR COETSER: Yes, I am. He is ready to testifiy now.
CHAIRPERSON: What language would he prefer to use?
MR COETSER: Mr Olifant would prefer and be prepared to speak English.
MANUEL ANTONIO OLIFANT: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Coetser, where would I find Mr Olifant's application in the bundle?
MR COETSER: The application is to be found from pages 1 through to pages 24 of the first bundle.
CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, I was looking in terms of his name as it appears on the front page. Yes, proceed.
EXAMINATION BY MR COETSER: Thank you.
Mr Olifant, just to cofirm your application for amnesty with regard to this matter is contained, as has been explained, from pages 1 through to pages 24 of the first bundle in this application.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR COETSER: And for practical purposes there are two statements setting out the factual situation in relation to your application. The first one is an extract from a more generalised statement, and that runs from pages 16 through to pages 21. Is that right?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR COETSER: And then the other statement runs from page 22 to page 24.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR COETSER: Before we deal with the statements particularly, there are just one or two other aspects hat I would like to canvass with you. First of all, is it correct that at the time of the particular incident we are dealing with, this Botswana Raid in 1985, you were in fact employed in terms of a contract of employment with the South African Police Services, as an agent.
MR OLIFANT: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR COETSER: And this contract with the South African Police Services as an agent, was intended by all parties to be an interim arrangement, pending the finalisation and successful application to become appointed a Constable in the South African Police Serves.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR COETSER: And at the time of this particular incident the process was proceeding within the South African Police Services, to have you appointed a Constable.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
MR COETSER: So in relation to this incident it was in your capacity as a contracted agent that you acted for the South African Police Services.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR COETSER: Right. Now if we look at the statements concerned, if we look at the first one ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Coetser, he's only making application in respect of any offences that occurred resulting from his activities in the Botswana Raid, that we're dealing with now?
MR COETSER: Yes, that is true.
If one looks at page 17 of the bundle, paragraph 1 of your first statement, you mention here that prior to the raid in Botswana you were instructed by then Lieut Willem Coetzee to enter Botswana in order to verify information provided to Security Forces, concerning the whereabouts of ANC cadres and the existence or not of safehouses where they resided.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
MR COETSER: And you describe in the statement further that you proceeded to do this and you reported back to Lieut Coetzee.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR COETSER: In your second statement, that is from pages 23 to 24 of the bundle, starting from paragraph 8, you also describe that ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that, page?
MR COETSER: It is page 23 of the bundle, paragraph 8 onwards, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR COETSER: You also describe that during 1985, as a result of dealing with a certain informer, eventually in May 1985, Coetzee instructed you to go to Botswana to observe certain houses which had been shown to you by this informer during visists there.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
MR COETSER: You were given specific addresses, a specific address or addresses in Gabarone North and Broadhurst, and you were instructed to spend six to seven days observing these houses, which you did, and then you provided your briefing insofar as what you observed, to Coetzee thereafter.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR COETSER: So in essence, if one combines these two statements it is apparent that you were instructed by Coetzee to go and hold observation in Botswana, more particularly Gaberone and surrounds, based on information provided by the Security Forces and information provided by an informer, and the whole idea was in essence, to observe apparent ANC activity going on in Gaberone and surrounds and to report this back.
MR OLIFANT: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR COETSER: And that is what you did.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR COETSER: Besides for these two instances concerned, were there other times when you went to Botswana to perform this task? Over time.
MR OLIFANT: Come again.
MR COETSER: Can you remember, besides for these two specific incidents when you went to hold observation, whether there were other incident, perhaps before that that you went to hold observation?
MR OLIFANT: No, no, Mr Chairperson.
MR COETSER: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON: Now Mr Coetser, I'm just wondering here, the reconnaissance that he refers to are two separate incidents, are both related to the attack which forms the subject matter of this application, or only one of them?
MR COETSER: Mr Chairman, my instructions are that from Mr Olifant, generally speaking, was that he was instructed to do things effectively on a need-to-know basis. So ...
CHAIRPERSON: Did both of these sets of, or occasions or reconnaissance, occur prior to the attack that we're talking about?
MR COETSER: Yes, that is apparent. How this particular information was used by others will obviously need to form the basis of explanation by others, but these explanations are being given and this testimoney has been provided, because logic would seem to dictate that given the time period and the time frame within which he performed these observational tasks, that they were ultimately tied in with the raid. But from an evidential point of view, I would submit that is something ultimately for the Commission to decide, whether inferences to that effect may be drawn or not.
Alright. Then to continue, otherwise the content of these particular statements, the factual material contained therein, do you confirm the correctness thereof?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR COETSER: Okay. Just to continue on one or two aspects. You described how eventually you were advised by your employers and your immediate superiors that you were to be taken to undergo some training with military personnel for the purposes of a raid in Botswana.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Was that after your intrusion into Botswana?
MR OLIFANT: No, before we could enter Botswana.
CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm talking about your reconnaissance escapades.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson, after I had gone to Botswana to observe the houses.
CHAIRPERSON: You went there twice?
MR OLIFANT: I went more than - I went once for observation and after I had come back I stayed plus-minus three months and thereon I was called by Mr Coetzee, who instructed Mr Anton Pretorius in order to take me somewhere in the area of Hammanskraal.
CHAIRPERSON: Look, you've just testified about the two occasions you went to observe ANC people, where they stayed and their activities, on two different occasions.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: All I want to know is that you were later informed that you were required to go through what seems like a crash course by the military, all I want to know is that, when you were informed that you had to go to this crash course, was that after both your intrusions into Botswana?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR MALAN: If I heard you correctly you said about three months later, after the last reconnaissance.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Malan.
CHAIRPERSON: Now what were you informed?
MR OLIFANT: Mr Chairperson?
CHAIRPERSON: What were you told what's going to happen? What must you do?
MR OLIFANT: When I went to Botswana?
CHAIRPERSON: No, when you were called now for this training.
MR OLIFANT: Well initially I was not informed that I would be going for a training, I'd just been told that no, I should just go to - Mr Pretorius must just take me into Hammanskraal and thereon I will see what will happen.
CHAIRPERSON: I must say I didn't get that impression, I thought you were told that you were going to have to go get some training with the military.
MR OLIFANT: No, I was not informed before.
CHAIRPERSON: What did you think you were going to go to there?
MR OLIFANT: Well I did not know exactly what I would be doing there. The only thing, when Mr Coetzee told Mr Pretorius that Mr Pretorius should take me to Hammanskraal where I will be a sort of like briefing member of the Military Intelligence. On my arrival there I saw lots of members from Army and ...
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on. Thank you.
MR COETSER: You have given a description in your two statements insofar as what happened when you were taken to the South African Defence Force base at Hammanskraal, is that correct?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR COETSER: And there you eventually found out more detail as to what was to happen, namely that there was going to be this raid by the military into Botswanaa, to attack various physical targets and you were given training insofar as that is concerned.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: What kind of training?
MR OLIFANT: It was attacking houses and defending ourselves in case of any eventuality.
MR COETSER: And is it correct that you were advised that the function that you were required to perform during the course of this raid, was to point out a certain house or houses that were going to be targets of this raid?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR COETSER: Now you have described here - if I can refer to paragraph 6, page 18 of the record, right at the bottom, that you were informed that the raid was to take place on a certain date but that the operation was delayed for a day, as the military were waiting for a certain General to give the final go-ahead for the mission, is that correct?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR COETSER: Now this General eventually arrived at Hammanskraal and advised that this operation had been authorised by the Cabinet.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: By the?
MR COETSER: Cabinet.
CHAIRPERSON: Cabinet?
MR COETSER: Yes. It's contained in the statement.
Were there any other final instructions given by this General?
CHAIRPERSON: Who said so?
MR COETSER: I'm sorry?
CHAIRPERSON: Who utttered those words? Who informed you that the Cabinet had sanctioned this attack?
MR OLIFANT: Well when we ought to leave to Botswana a certain General who had come there with a helicopter.
CHAIRPERSON: What's his name?
MR OLIFANT: I can't remember - well I did not know his name at all.
CHAIRPERSON: How do you know he's a General?
MR OLIFANT: Well there was an introduction before the assembly.
CHAIRPERSON: How was he introduced?
MR OLIFANT: A certain Commandant was in charge of the camp and he informed us all that a General from Pretoria would lbe arriving at any time now and we should all be ready because he's going to address us on a matter of Botswana.
CHAIRPERSON: You see Mr Olifant, and I don't mean to sound like I'm pressurising, but it's become a trait of applicants to say or to refer to people as "a certain General" or "a certain Commandant", without identifying these people. Now you've made two important statements, one, that a certain Commandant informed you and others that a particular General would come to address you, you don't know the identity of either, but the importance of that is that one of them, I think it was the General who says: "Look, the Cabinet has sanctioned this attack". Now it's important for us to know those things. Can you not help us?
MR OLIFANT: The Commandant, his name was called Commandant Naude from Military Intelligence.
CHAIRPERSON: From Military Intelligence.
MR OLIFANT: And that was the person that was in charge of the camp.
CHAIRPERSON: In Hammanskraal?
MR OLIFANT: In Hammanskraal - well let's just say opposite Hammanskraal, because it was the outskirts of Hammanskraal.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, and can you perhaps remember the name of the General now?
MR OLIFANT: I cannot remember - well I can't remember his name totally. The day we were supposed to depart to Botswana, the General who came by helicopter to the camp told us that we cannot go through to Botswana before the superior structure could approve the matter. First we were to - we had to wait for a day in order to get instructions from the Cabinet. And the following day at around about ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone)
MR OLIFANT: For a day.
CHAIRPERSON: For permission from a superior structure?
MR OLIFANT: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone)
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Then ...(indistinct - no microphone) that it was the Cabinet that had granted this approval?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone)
MR BERGER: I'm sorry Chairperson, we can't hear you because your microphone is off.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry. Let's start again. You were informed by this General who arrived by helicopter that the raid could not take place because of the lack of approval from a superior structure. When eventually you poeple were told that you can now go across and do what you wanted to do, you were then told by the same person that approval has now been forthcoming from the Cabinet?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Was the superior structure and the Cabinet the same structure?
MR OLIFANT: Well to me that appeared to be the same thing.
MR COETSER: This particular General, did he give the operatives, the military operatives that he addressed when advising that clearance had been given for the raid, did he give them any specific instructions as to how the raid was to be carried out, what they were to do?
MR OLIFANT: No, the military personnel knew what to do.
MR COETSER: Were any instructions given insofar as what the military were to do or how they were to deal with people found in the houses that had been targeted for attack?
MR OLIFANT: Well the General who came by helicopter, he never disclosed anything concerning what to do in Botswana, but during our five days in Hammanskraal we were actually taught what to do. Like for instance, when you go into a house, you just break into a house and the next thing whoever you found there you will just shoot and ...
CHAIRPERSON: Anybody?
MR OLIFANT: Anybody.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone)
MR OLIFANT: Well that was never been mentioned about a five year old and all this, but whoever you found in a house, it's a woman, man, you should just shoot.
CHAIRPERSON: Why ...(indistinct - no microphone)
MR OLIFANT: Because according to the information, you see, according to the information we had received is this, people who stayed in those houses were all armed and they were all members of MK, Umkhonto weSizwe.
CHAIRPERSON: And those decisions ...(indistinct - no microphone)
INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not activated.
CHAIRPERSON: Those decisions to kill everybody in whichever house is attacked, could not be deviated because as I understand your evidence the occupants of those houses were regarded as armed MK members.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Now what would happen if you found a six year old child sleeping in bed? Surely he couldn't be regarded as armed and dangerous and a member of MK?
MR OLIFANT: Well as an individual a person had to think what to do whenever ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: No, but didn't they discuss it there before and say: "Look here, women and children are excluded? Or children, for that matter.
MR OLIFANT: Well I can't exactly remember whether there's stuff about children or what will happen to the children, but I know for a fact that with my experience it's that whenever you come across to a child there, you always have to, you know, safeguard the child.
CHAIRPERSON: During that five days of sojourn outside, or at Hammanskraal, where you got your training, was that never mentioned that "our attack is a clean attack, it's a political attack and we're not to injure or kill children"?
MR OLIFANT: Well I cannot remember whether they spoke about such an incident or not, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Well you were trained, can you tell us whether you were trained in that?
MR OLIFANT: Mr Chairperson, it was actually my first time to meet the Military Intelligence in my life ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm not talking about whether you met them for the first time, I'm asking you about your training. Were you taught to exclude children?
MR OLIFANT: Mr Chairperson, I can't remember whether they spoke about such a matter or not.
CHAIRPERSON: Why can't you remember that?
MR OLIFANT: Well it has been a long time, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: But surely if it's something important like that, you would remember? And that happened in 1985, nowhere in the world at that time, to my knowledge, could it be said that children are a danger. It may be true today in Sierra Leone, but not that time.
MR OLIFANT: Well I cannot remember, Mr Chairperson, I'm being honest with you.
CHAIRPERSON: This is not the only hearing that I've been involved in and the same can be said about my colleagues here, time and time again we've been told by applicants who were working with the Security Forces of the time, that in general it was a cardinal rule that innocent women and children were not targets. That's why I'm asking you, were you not told during that brief training session that you had, that this was the case?
MR OLIFANT: Like I'm saying that no, I cannot remember whether they spoke about the children or not, but - well I can't remember.
CHAIRPERSON: Anyway you say you were taken on this trip just to point out houses?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Coetser.
MR COETSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
If we move on to your description and your two statements as to what happened during the course of the raid, you say, for example at paragraph 8, that's page 19 of the record ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Of the bundle?
MR COETSER: It's the main bundle, paragraph 8, second paragraph down on page 19.
... that:
"The Sergeant and I stayed at the President Hotel and we identified our target during the day."
What I'd like to ask you here is, in addition to you identifying your target to the Sergeant that you were answerable to, were you requested by the military during the course of that day, to assist other groups to go and identify their targets' houses?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Which other groups were there? I thought they were all military.
MR OLIFANT: Well when we entered Botswana we divided ourselves, each unit consisted of plus-minus four/five members.
CHAIRPERSON: All military?
MR OLIFANT: That's right, Mr Chairperson.
MR COETSER: Can you remember how many other targets you were requested to go and assist in identifying during the day?
MR OLIFANT: There were only - if I could still remember properly, there were only three.
MR COETSER: Then you continue to say that insofar as a particular target is concerned of the group that you were attached to, that evening you were in fact not able to locate that particular target.
MR OLIFANT: Most of the targets we actually, I actually showed to other members during the day.
MR COETSER: But your target that evening you were unable to locate after dark, is that correct?
MR OLIFANT: That's right, yes, it was outside of the town.
MR COETSER: So the end result of that was that the target of the unit to whom you were attached didn't in fact attack that particular target?
MR OLIFANT: No, it wasn't.
MR COETSER: Okay.
MR MALAN: Just before you proceed, did you accompany that group that night?
MR OLIFANT: No, no, no, Mr Malan, I never accompanied them, only I showed during the day that okay, here are the targets and that was it.
MR MALAN: So you did not go out during the night?
MR OLIFANT: No, Mr Chairperson.
MR MALAN: You stayed where?
MR OLIFANT: Excuse me. I was actually selected into one of the units which was supposed to have attacked a certain target, outskirts of Gaberone, but during that night since it was dark and the way to the target it was so difficult, we could not locate our target and as we did not want to just go into any other target, we preferred to actually withdraw from that target and we, threw communications with the radio we asked the Commandant who was actually in charge of the area, whether we could just leave the target as it was and the Commandant agreed to that.
MR MALAN: I think you misunderstood me, I was asking whether you were accompanying that group that failed to locate your specific target that night.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR MALAN: So you were supposed to be part of the attacking group?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR MALAN: But you could not find the target?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR MALAN: And you then withdrew back to base, or where did you withdraw to?
MR OLIFANT: Well there was a place between Gaberone and Klokweni border that's not far from Oasis Motel, where everybody after attacking his target, whatever, was supposed to convene and man a roadblock.
MR MALAN: Okay. So you were not involved in any contact situation in Botswana?
MR OLIFANT: No, Mr Chairperson.
MR MALAN: Thank you Mr Coetser.
MR COETSER: Just to clarify this one aspect, if you had found your target and your particular group had carried out an attack, what were you advised your role was to be during that attack?
MR OLIFANT: It was actually to keep observation, it was to back up the unit who would be going into the house. That was my role.
MR COETSER: After the raid had been completed, you describe and state in your statement how you returned and you advised your superiors as to what had occurred.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR COETSER: You mentioned here that you received a sum of R1 500 from Lieut Coetzee, that R1 500, was that a special payment for taking part in the raid, or was that part and parcel of your ordinary remuneration that you received as an agent?
MR OLIFANT: Well it was actually, it was an additional amount of my salary. My salary was actually about R600-and-something a month, but after the raid there was an actual additional amount which I was given by Mr Coetzee, which all together amounted to R1 500.
MR OLIFANT: Why? Why did you get that money?
MR OLIFANT: Mr Chairperson?
CHAIRPERSON: Why did you get that extra money?
MR OLIFANT: Well I cannot answer why did he give me that money.
CHAIRPERSON: Why did you take it then? Why did you take it, why did you think you were taking it?
MR OLIFANT: Well it was inside the envelope after all and it was a sealed envelope, so I took it and I realised after that no, it was an extra amount of money ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: No come Mr Olifant, people don't just in your situation, take sealed envelopes, as a matter of fact you don't know if there's a bomb inside. Why did you take that money? What did you think it was for? Or let's put it this way, when you finally opened this envelope and you saw how much money there was, why didn't you return it?
MR OLIFANT: Well I took it because ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Why? That's what I'm trying to ...
MR OLIFANT: Maybe it was to thank me for what I have done, I don't know, I wouldn't say. ...(indistinct), Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Was it not an extra payment for your escape into Botswana? Not so? It certainly looks like it, isn't it?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson, I won't ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: And did you accept it as such?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson, I accepted it.
CHAIRPERSON: So you were paid for your part in the attack?
MR OLIFANT: Well as it appeared, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Coetser.
MR COETSER: Thank you.
Just finally on this aspect, prior to you going on this raid, did you at any time demand from your superiors, for example, Lieut Coetzee, that you be paid extra to go on this raid or that you receive a separate payment to go on this raid, or demand that you be paid separately to go on this raid or anything like that?
MR OLIFANT: No, Mr Chairperson, because first of all I did not know that I will be taking part in this raid.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Olifant, when you went to Botswana you were not connected in any formal way to the military, not so?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And this whole attack was a military operation.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: One can understand that you were waiting to be appointed as a Constable of the Police Services, not so?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: For which you received a meagre amount per month, correct?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: So isn't it that you were not connected to the military and that when you went with the military into Botswana that day, you went there as a private person, because the police could not go into Botswana, is that not so?
MR OLIFANT: Well Mr Chairperson, when I went there I went in the capacity of being a member of the Intelligence.
CHAIRPERSON: Of what?
MR OLIFANT: Police Intelligence.
CHAIRPERSON: But the police could not go into Botswana.
MR OLIFANT: Well Mr Chairperson, ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: The Cabinet decision could only have been approval for the military operation, is that not so? The Cabinet would not sanction a police intrusion into Botswana.
MR OLIFANT: Well I do agree with you, Mr Chairperson, but ...
CHAIRPERSON: So you could only have gone into Botswana with the military as a private person, because you were not connected to the military. Is that not so?
MR OLIFANT: Well I got instructions from my superior, not because I wanted actually to be credited as a ... I was just ought to become a Constable.
CHAIRPERSON: But then explain this then, if you were there on instruction of your superior in the Police Force, why were you paid that extra thousand rand or so?
MR OLIFANT: Well Mr Coetzee will answer for that, I don't know why they did give ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Well why did you take it? Why did you use it?
MR OLIFANT: Well I don't deny the fact that I've taken that money, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: I know you can't deny it, I'm asking you why?
CHAIRPERSON: Are you able to tell us?
MR OLIFANT: I'm unable, Mr Chairperson, to tell you about that, why did I take it, because ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Even the logical conclusion you can't render, that you took it as payment as a private person assisting the military in their intrusion into Botswana, and you did it for money. I'm giving you an opportunity to explain it, because the most natural conclusion one has to come to in the circumstances is that you did it as a mercenary. I'm offering you the opportunity to explain it in some other way.
MR OLIFANT: Mr Chairperson, I never asked any money to Mr Coetzee when I came back from Botswana.
MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC COMMENTS FROM AUDIENCE
I never asked any money ...(intervention)
MR COETSER: Just stop there a minute please.
CHAIRPERSON: Will whoever is speaking ...(intervention)
MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC COMMENTS FROM AUDIENCE
CHAIRPERSON: Will the gentleman please keep quiet, this is a formal hearing and if you want to ask questions, you do it through an attorney.
Again I'm going to repeat myself now. I'm offering you an opportunity to give us an explanation to avoid us coming to certain conclusions. This money that you took and received, what was that for? Did you not go back to whoever gave it to you and say: "There's too much money in my envelope, why are you giving me more money?"?
MR OLIFANT: Well I never went back to Coetzee and asked whether ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: We know that now. I'm asking you why didn't you go back if you didn't know what this money was for.
MR OLIFANT: Well honestly, I can't answer Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Coetser.
MR COETSER: This money was given to you by Lieut Coetzee, is that correct?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR COETSER: And at the time that you received your envelope concerned, did you understand this to be your salary payment that you were being given?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR COETSER: What you discovered of course was that ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Well Mr Coetser, that's a very convenient question and your client readily accepts it, let us find out what he thought. I've been trying for the last 15 minutes to find out what he thought when he received this extra money.
MR COETSER: Alright, let me put it another way. That envelope of money that you received in that particular month, were you paid two monthly salaries for that month, or only one?
MR OLIFANT: It was for two months salary.
MR COETSER: Now what I'm talking about is, for that particular month did Mr Coetzee give you a double payment for that month, or was your salary for that month included in the R1 500 that you received from him?
MR OLIFANT: It was my salary. In my salary it was an additional amount of money which was actually unaccountable for.
MR COETSER: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON: I thought you just told us it was two months salary, are you just being an opportunist? Come on now, Mr Olifant, you're here to tell the truth.
MR OLIFANT: No, I misunderstood, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: It's up to you whether you're going to tell us the truth or not. I'm going to give you one more chance, your Advocate has tried also. What was that extra money for? You don't know.
MR OLIFANT: Well to me it appeared that Mr Coetzee was actually giving me extra money for ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: For what?
MR OLIFANT: For work which I've done.
CHAIRPERSON: Which work?
MR OLIFANT: You know for me going to Botswana and ...
CHAIRPERSON: Did he tell you that?
MR OLIFANT: No, he never said anything about it.
CHAIRPERSON: You never enquired?
MR OLIFANT: Well it was not much to say that time you know, I didn't have the right to ask him: "Why do you have to give money ...(indistinct)".
CHAIRPERSON: You were still under contract at the time?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: You didn't even ask him: "Look, am I now formally appointed as Constable, that's why I've got an increase like this"?
MR OLIFANT: No, I didn't ask, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, 'cause you knew you weren't appointed as yet, not so? You weren't appointed that time.
MR OLIFANT: No, I wasn't.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Coetser.
MR COETSER: Thank you.
Then just to summarise the issue, the facts on this issue. The way I understand them is, you were instructed by your superiors, as part of your employment as an agent, to join the military for the purposes of this raid that they were intending to do.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR COETSER: Okay. No discussions were had insofar as any extra remuneration is concerned, for doing that.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR COETSER: You did what you were instructed to do, you were informed what you were required to do and upon your return you were given your salary for that month, but you discovered that in your envelope there was an additional amount.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR COETSER: You came to the conclusion that that additional amount was paid to you for the work that you carried out insofar as the raid is concerned.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR COETSER: Alright. And that was a payment, well obviously it was a payment from the South African Police Services to you.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that true? Is that correct?
MR OLIFANT: It is correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Was the South African Police not conduit for the payment from the military? I ask the question, we don't know. Carry on.
MR COETSER: Well let me ask the question, can you say whether the additional money that you received in your envelope had been given to Lieut Coetzee from anybody in the military?
MR OLIFANT: The money was from the SAP, not from the MI.
MR COETSER: Do you mean to say that what you know is that the money was given to you by Lieut Coetzee?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, not from the - from the SAP, not from Mr Coetzee, but from the SAP. He was only the mediator between ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: How do you know that, you never spoke to Coetzee about the extra money?
MR OLIFANT: Ja, but Mr Chairperson, Mr Coetzee, he had no access of any Military Intelligence funds, the only funds which he had, it was from the SAP funds.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Coetser.
JUDGE MOTATA: Is that not an assumption you are making? You don't know what was discussed behind, because even yourself getting to join the military where you got some training, you did not know beforehand what it was for when you were taken there. Now when you received this extra money, extra to your salary, you are making an assumption that it is from the South African Police, you don't have an idea about that, only Mr Coetzee probably knew.
MR OLIFANT: Well I do agree with you, Mr Chairperson.
JUDGE MOTATA: You may proceed, Mr Coetser.
MR COETSER: Thank you, Judge. Mr Chairman, at this moment in time I would like to make Mr Olifant available for the purposes of general questioning that the Panel insofar as his role is concerned.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR COETSER
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: As it pleases you, Mr Chairman.
Mr Olifant I don't quite understand, you say that you only went to Botswana on two occasions. Did I understand that correctly, or am I wrong?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER: You see because I was under the impression that you went with the informer that you spoke about to Botswana, sometimes three or four times a week I think is what you said. I'm just trying to find it, Chairperson.
MR OLIFANT: Well Mr Chairperson, for Botswana raid I went two times, once when the source had gone to pinpoint the places
and the second time when I went on my own, while the third time was when I went with all the personnel, military personnel.
MR VISSER: Yes. It's at page 23, paragraph 8. Would this then be incorrect if you said there:
"I used to transport her (referring to the informer) to Lesotho and Botswana almost three to four times a week. During our visits to those countries, Willem Coetzee used to tell that she must show me houses where the most wanted suspects stayed."
Are you saying that if you divide up your trips between Lesotho and Botswana, Botswana took only two of your trips, is that what you're saying?
MR MALAN: Mr Visser, I think the misunderstanding is that in the beginning we talked about two, call it groups of events going into Botswana, the onew as with the military, the other was with the informer. Later it was said that he went into Botswana twice on the raid expedition, one with the intelligence gathering and the pointing out and the second with the actual raid. But I never understood him to say that he in all his activities, referring to both paragraphs, he only entered Botswana twice.
MR VISSER: Well you see that's really the point.
Do you agree with Mr Malan that you had gone to Botswana as an agent of the Intelligence Unit of Soweto, on more than two occasions?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER: What I want to ask you is, did you penetrate any of the ANC structures in Botswana?
MR OLIFANT: Well to be - to clarify the whole matter as it is, I used to go to Botswana for some other matters, not precisely this one of the raid. Now whenever I mention here that I used to go to Botswana once, twice a week, what all, I'm trying to actually ...(indistinct) everything together.
MR VISSER: Yes, I follow that.
MR MALAN: Mr Olifant, the question is whether you penetrated - in all these entrances into Botswana whith your informer, whether you penetrated any of the ANC structures?
MR OLIFANT: No, no.
MR VISSER: Alright. Now did you know at the time of the Botswana raid, or did you hear subsequently which targets had been attacked on the night of the 14th of June 1985?
MR OLIFANT: Well the names of the targets - the names of the people who were living at the ...(indistinct) targets which I had kept observation at, I cannot remember presently.
MR VISSER: No, no, I'm not asking you whether you reemmber, I'm simply asking you whether you heard aftewards or whether you knew at the time which targets had been attacked by the military.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And were they the same targets as the ones that you kept observation on and that you gave information about to ...(intervention)
MR OLIFANT: Some of the targets, Mr Chairperson, were exactly targets which I had identified to the Military Intelligence.
MR VISSER: My question, you interrupted me before I finished, were there then some of those targets that were attacked on that night, about which you had given information to Coetzee about beforehand?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Now we come to the question of remembering. Can you remember which targets they were or can't you?
MR OLIFANT: I cannot remember, but I know for a fact it was in Gaberone North and Braodhurst.
MR VISSER: Yes. And the second part to that question is this, did the targets that were attacked that you had previously given information about to Coetzee, also include persons and not only installations?
MR OLIFANT: Well people living in those targets, really honest, I did not know them, I only knew the houses and the names.
MR VISSER: Let me then ask you the question like this. Previously when you went in to go and do observations, were you also asked by Coetzee to observe certain people in Botswana, the movement of certain people in Botswana?
MR OLIFANT: To observe people in those certain addresses, yes, I do agree.
MR VISSER: Can you remember any of the names of such people?
MR OLIFANT: No, I cannot remember the names.
CHAIRPERSON: How would Coetzee ask you to survey or observe the activities of a particular person?
MR OLIFANT: Well Mr Chairperson, what Mr Coetzee did is this, he gave me the addresses, he gave me the address and say: "Okay fine, so and so is staying here and ...(indistinct)". He used to give as well the vehicle which he used to drive and plus-minus a description of that particular person.
CHAIRPERSON: A description?
MR OLIFANT: A description, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: How would you be able to identify the house in which such a person stayed?
MR OLIFANT: Well what I did is just to go to a particular address and verify whether the number of the address and the description which I got from Coetzee would match.
CHAIRPERSON: How would you do that? Would you just walk up to the house and knock on the door and say: "Well I'm from the South African Police Intelligence, can you please identify yourself"?
MR OLIFANT: No, well I will always keep at a distance and try to plus-minus stay about 1 hour, in order to check what's going on, the movement of the house, whether ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: No, we're not talking about that, we're talking about the identification of people and places. How would Coetzee get his message across to you that he wants information about Mr X, where he stays, with who he associates and what he gets up to? You don't know the identity of this person, how would Coetzee convey to you his instructions then?
MR OLIFANT: Well if the address is the same as I was given by Mr Coetzee and maybe a vehicle which will be in the yard or by coincidence it will be a vehicle coming out or going in with the registration number which I got from Mr Coetzee, plus-minus I will try to even look at a person, whether it will suit from what I had got from Coetzee, and then that was it.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Visser.
MR VISSER: But Mr Olifant ...(intervention)
JUDGE MOTATA: May I just interpose Mr Visser?
When you came back from Botswana the first time whilst you were doing work for the Police Intelligence, you gave a report back to Coetzee, I think that's what you said at some stage, or in your papers - would I be right?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
JUDGE MOTATA: What report were you giving after spending six days in Botswana, what did you say to Coetzee, what have you observed?
MR OLIFANT: What I had seen in this specific address which he actually send me to go keep ...(intervention)
JUDGE MOTATA: These persons whom he gave you a description of, what did you say about those persons?
MR OLIFANT: That: "I've seen those people and the description which you gave to me, it really suit to what I've seen, or this did not suit", you know.
JUDGE MOTATA: Now this informer you firstly went with to Botswana, showing you houses, did she tell you who those houses were occupied by?
MR OLIFANT: She only said that it were occupied by members of the ANC.
JUDGE MOTATA: Thank you, you may proceed Mr Visser.
MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Would it be convenient for us to take a short tea adjournment?
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
MANUEL ANTONIO OLIFANT: (s.u.o.)
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Visser.
MR COETSER ADDRESSES: Mr Chairman sorry, if I may say something before we proceed with the process. Unfortunately I do appreciate that the Commission does not have the assistance of court orderlies to effect discipline in these proceedings, but in all fairness to Mr Olifant in endeavouring to assist the Commission and deriving at the truth with regard to this particular incident, I must report that during the tea break certain individuals in the public gallery have taken it upon themselves to shout comments directly to Mr Olifant.
I do appreciate that these are emotional times, that the evidential material that is being disclosed certainly is likely to upset people and I can understand that, but I would ask the Commission if the public gallery could be advised to exercise a
sufficient degree of restraint in order that positions of people who are applicants in this matter, such as Mr Olifant, are not made to feel unecessarily uncomfortable in assisting the Commission in the process concerned. Thank you, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: It has just been reported to me that the applicant, while he is still under oath in fact, has been interferred with during the short break that we've just had. I would thank everyone, including members of the public, to desist from doing so. In addition, before we broke for the tea adjournment I noticed on a few occasions prior to that, spates of emotional outbursts during the period of the applicant gtestifying. I would ask everyone, including members of the public, to stop doing that and any continuance of either will be regarded as contemptuous to this Commission. Thank you, Mr Coetser. Mr Visser.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: (cont)
Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr Olifant, we've just reached the stage where I was going to ask you, did Mr Coetzee also expect you to keep observation of certain individuals of whom he gave you the names?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Can you remember any of those names?
MR OLIFANT: Well one of the names is Abrahams.
MR VISSER: Abrahamse?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson. And others I can't recall them. There were about - altogether there were about three houses which I identified in Botswana.
MR VISSER: Yes, well I'm not talking about houses now, I'm talking about people. About how many people were you observing in Botswana at the time in 1985?
MR OLIFANT: Oh well he never really gave me the names of the people, if that's a ...(indistinct), he only gave me the house and the surnames.
MR VISSER: No, I thought I was actually asking you whether he gave you names or people and I thought you said yes.
MR OLIFANT: No, I misunderstood you, Mr Chairperson, I apoligise.
CHAIRPERSON: And where did Abrahams come from?
MR OLIFANT: That's one of the names which he gave to me.
MR MALAN: Mr Olifant you said he gave you only the house and the surnames ...
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR MALAN: ... now for purposes of these questionings, name and surname is the same thing. The question is, did he give you the surnames of any individuals, apart from Abrahams?
MR OLIFANT: Mr Chairperson, he gave me the addresses and the surnames.
MR MALAN: Now you said one of the surnames was Abrahams.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR MALAN: The question is, can you remember any other surnames?
MR OLIFANT: No, I cannot remember, Mr Chiarperson.
MR VISSER: Well, can I with reference to Exhibit B, ask you whether any of the names that I will mention to you rings a bell as someone that you observed and gave information about to Mr Coetzee.
CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit B?
MR VISSER: B for Bravo, yes. It's the little extract of page 93 of the ANC's representation to the TRC, Chairperson.
I will read them to you:
"Ahmed Geer"
does it ring a bell? Left-hand side of the page, on the top. Number 2:
"Ahmed Geer"
does that ring a bell with you?
MR OLIFANT: No.
MR VISSER: Number 3:
"Michael Hamlyn"
MR OLIFANT: No, I can't remember him.
MR VISSER: Well I'm not asking you to remember or to try to remember the information, what you knew about such a person, I'm only asking you whether any of the names that I'm calling out to you rings a bell as someone that you had something to do with as far as your observations were concerned. Now, "Michael Hamlyn", does that ring a bell with you?
MR OLIFANT: No.
MR VISSER: Alright, I will leave out 4 and 5.
"Duke Mashobane"
MR OLIFANT: No.
MR VISSER:
"Joseph Malaza"
MR OLIFANT: Malaza ...(inaudible). No.
MR VISSER: You seem doubtful about Mr Hamlyn and Mr Malaza, is that correct?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, ja. Malaza and the first one ....
MR VISSER: Hamlyn?
MR OLIFANT: Yes, you know I can try and recollect something about them.
MR VISSER: So they do ring a bell with you, alright. And then 14:
"Harry Mnyele" or "Tamie Mnyele"
MR OLIFANT: No.
MR VISSER: Number 15:
"Dick Mtsweni"
MR OLIFANT: No.
MR VISSER: No 17:
"George Pahle"
MR OLIFANT: No.
MR VISSER: Number 18:
"Lindi Pahle"
MR OLIFANT: No.
MR VISSER: Now some other names. Tim Williams?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
MR VISSER: You remember Tim Williams. And a person by the name of Gilder?
MR OLIFANT: No.
MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr Olifant, you say in your amnesty application at page 1, that you supported the government of the day in 1985. Would that have been the South African Government that you supported?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Why? Why did you support the South African Government?
MR OLIFANT: Well as a member of the Intelligence, I had no right to go contra to their principles, to the government's principles.
CHAIRPERSON: Why, because they were your employer?
MR OLIFANT: Well I was a member of the South African Government, so I had to abide to the ...
CHAIRPERSON: At the time, Mr Olifant, you were a contracted agent, that's all you were, I want to know why you felt yourself as a supporter of the South African Government, whose policy was apartheid. Is it because they employed you?
MR OLIFANT: Well Mr Chairperson, you know to clear up that point where I had to be contracted, Mr Coetzee when he thought about giving me a contract in the Police Force, it's because I had been transferred from South West Africa into Johannesburg. So in the interim I had not been enrolled into the South African Police ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Where did you come from?
MR OLIFANT: Namibia. I was a member of Koevoet.
CHAIRPERSON: Koevoet, ja.
MR OLIFANT: So ...(indistinct) was a way of actually sort of like giving me a monthly salary. In that regard, whenever Mr Coetzee he put me as - he actually temporarily made a contract with me in the South African Police, it was just because you know, I had to earn a salary on a monthly basis. That was it. Not because I went there ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Why did you support the South African Government of the day?
MR OLIFANT: Like I've said, Mr Chairperson, I was a member ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Of what?
MR OLIFANT: Of the Intelligence. So I had to abide.
CHAIRPERSON: I see. Yes, carry on Mr Berger.
MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr Olifant, you say you had to abide.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
MR BERGER: My question is, did you support the policies of the South African Government in 1985?
MR OLIFANT: The policies? No, I didn't support at all.
MR BERGER: So would it be correct to say that your actions were not political? Or let me - sorry, your actions were not politically motivated.
MR OLIFANT: Well whatever I did I did under instructions from my seniors, that is it. So ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: No, listen to the question, it's a very important question. Whatever you did was not motivated politically from a personal viewpoint, as opposed to merely complying with the requirements of your job. Have I got the gist of your question?
MR BERGER: Exactly, yes Chairperson.
MR OLIFANT: I would say yes, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me?
MR BERGER: Is your answer "yes, in whatever I did I was not politically motivated"?
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, I think to be quite fair to the witness, from the ...(indistinct), from the personal point of view I think you mean to say, because it could be interpreted in complying with his job description, that provided the political motivation itself.
MR BERGER: Yes.
Mr Olifant, is it your evidence that whatever you did, and in particular what you did in relation to the attack on Gaberone, was not motivated by personal political feeling?
MR OLIFANT: No.
MR BERGER: It was not motivated by politics?
MR OLIFANT: No, it was instructions from my senior. That is it.
MR BERGER: And would that be because you disagreed with the government's policy of apartheid?
MR OLIFANT: Well I had no right to disagree with the government of the day.
CHAIRPERSON: How did you feel about apartheid?
MR OLIFANT: Well very bad, even to myself as well it would affect me.
MR BERGER: So your actions in Botswana, in gathering intelligence and in participating in the attack, for you it was just a job?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson. Initially when I began doing the gathering of the intelligence job, I was actually not aware that at the end it will be raiding Botswana.
MR BERGER: I'll come back to that. How did it come about that you took such a job? You said you were in Koevoet, you were transferred from Koevoet to become an agent for the police, you ultimately became a Constable in the police, why, if you were not motivated politically, why did you undertake this job?
MR OLIFANT: Mr Chairperson, if I may elaborate on that point. To be a member of Intelligence, it's something very difficult, but those days it ...(indistinct) something very difficult. When I left Koevoet to Jo'burg, I never chose to say that: "No, I want to go to Jo'burg", I was actually transferred like any other member would have been transferred.
CHAIRPERSON: Maybe you misunderstood the question, I'll give you the benefit of that doubt. The question is directed at you. You say from a personal point of view you could not support the policy of apartheid. Do I undestand you correctly?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: The Security Forces, including the South African Police, were one of the pillars in the upkeep of aparatheid, not so? Would you agree with that?
MR OLIFANT: Yes, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: The question that Mr Berger's asked you then, why would you involved yourself in police then if you felt that way?
MR OLIFANT: Not because I involved myself, I was instructed from Namibia that: "Okay, you'll be going to Johannesburg" ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone)
MR OLIFANT: Well it's - I never joined Koevoet actually, I was taken from Pretoria straight to Koevoet and from Koevoet it's where I joined the ...(indistinct)
CHAIRPERSON: When did you first become a policeman?
MR OLIFANT: That was in 1985.
CHAIRPERSON: Where?
MR OLIFANT: When for the first time I became a policeman? You see there is a contract ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Let's put it this way, when did you first join the Security Forces?
MR OLIFANT: In 1979.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you go straight to Koevoet?
MR OLIFANT: I was taken straight to Koevoet.
CHAIRPERSON: And that was your first connection with the Forces of apartheid?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Now why did you join Koevoet?
MR OLIFANT: I never joined it, I was made to join the Koevoet.
CHAIRPERSON: You were forced to join Koevoet?
MR OLIFANT: Well not forced, but the circumstances which I was into, I was actually taken to ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: No, what led you to join Koevoet?
MR OLIFANT: I never joined volunatarily, I never even knew about Koevoet at all.
CHAIRPERSON: What made you join the South African Security Forces?
MR OLIFANT: Well Headquarters actually ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Look, don't come tell us about Headquarters now. Before we get to Headquarters, how did you get involved with the Security Forces of South Africa? Either on a friendly basis or a social basis or whatever.
MR OLIFANT: No, I was actually recruited by Intelligence.
CHAIRPERSON: You were recruited?
MR OLIFANT: That's right.
CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you say no?
MR OLIFANT: Well I never knew for a fact that a later stage I would involved in a, you know ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: No, you were recruited into what?
MR OLIFANT: Into Vlakplaas.
CHAIRPERSON: Into Vlakplaas?
MR OLIFANT: That's right, ja.
CHAIRPERSON: Maybe the English I'm talking is not the same English you understand.
MR MALAN: Mr Olifant, did you join Vlakplaas as an askari?
MR OLIFANT: No, at that time it was no askari, Mr Chiarperson, it was just a farm which was only based with the members of the Intelligence.
MR MALAN: Now who recruited you?
MR OLIFANT: It was, at that stage it was Brig JJ Viktor, Col Frans Beck(?)
MR MALAN: Now what was the circumstances, where did he find you?
MR OLIFANT: What happened is when they learn about our situation ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: What situation?
MR OLIFANT: That we were refugees.
CHAIRPERSON: From where?
MR OLIFANT: From Mozambique.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you a refugee from Mozambique?
MR OLIFANT: The group which I was with.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you an original South African, or where do you come from?
MR OLIFANT: No, by birth I'm not a South African.
CHAIRPERSON: By birth you're not South African?
MR OLIFANT: No. Although my father's a South African.
CHAIRPERSON: So at some time they found out that you were a refugee from Mozambique?
MR OLIFANT: That's right, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: How did you get the name Olifant then? Or was it one of those people who couldn't spell Ndlovu, or something like that?
MR OLIFANT: Well that is - my father will answer that, not me, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So you were a refugee and these policemen found out that you were a refugee.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, yes Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Carry on, tell us more now. Tell us more now, carry on with your evidence.
MR OLIFANT: So when the Intelligence discovered that no, we were actually refugees, then they recruited us. They kept us at the then so-called Vlakplaas, but at that time it wasn't called Vlakplaas, it was just called a farm. They kept us there for a month and Brig JJ Viktor, in 1980 he informed us that no, we'll be going to Koevoet, we'll be going to Namibia.
CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you reject this idea now? They're obviously putting you under pressure saying that you are a refugee, you must help the police. Why didn't you reject it?
MR OLIFANT: Well I was a youngster at that stage and I did not know what was good, what was ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: How old were you then?
MR OLIFANT: I was 18 years old.
CHAIRPERSON: When you were 28, why didn't you reject all this then?
MR OLIFANT: I had no choice because I had already merged myself into a mess.
CHAIRPERSON: No, you did.
MR OLIFANT: Honestly, I had no choice. If we can go back to my - some of the application, some of the hearings, some of our members got killed because, the ones who wanted to flee from the Force.
MR MALAN: Just repeat that, I didn't hear that. Some of your members ...
MR OLIFANT: Got killed because they left the Security Force, they left the Intelligence.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Berger.
MR MALAN: Just before you proceed, Mr Berger.
Did you flee Mozambique from Frelimo? Were you working with Renamo? How did you become a refugee?
MR OLIFANT: What happened is this. When Frelimo took over Mozambique, alright, my father said to me: "Go back to your grannies in Natal". Now since I was not only one, I had friends whom I intended to come to South Africa with, so what happened is we all came together. Now by coming all together into South Africa, we were caught, we were caught and well they put - we were in prison about a week and from there on then they released us. Then I said to the Komatiepoort Intelligence that I am South African by naturalisation. I gave my father's name, I gave the addresses, everything, somewhere in Natal, but they never wanted actually to let me go to Natal, instead they took us from Komatiepoort straight to Vlakplaas.
MR MALAN: Were you assaulted by the ...
MR OLIFANT: No, no, we had never been assaulted.
MR MALAN: Never been assaulted.
MR OLIFANT: Never been assaulted.
JUDGE MOTATA: Sorry, would that include people like Adriano Mbambo?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
JUDGE MOTATA: Amaro da Silva?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
JUDGE MOTATA: Abilio Makwakwa?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
JUDGE MOTATA: And George Sigauke?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
JUDGE MOTATA: You may proceed, Mr Berger.
MR BERGER: Thank you, Judge.
Mr Olifant, I've noticed that you have a difficulty in coming out with a lot of evidence that is inside of you and I knew that your story went back to when you came from Mozambique, but it was just so difficult to get it out of you. And I'm going to ask you please, when you listen to the question, just get the evidence out, try and tell the Committee as much as you know, rather than giving little titbits of information every now and then. There's an obligation on you to make full disclosure, so will you try in answering my questions, to tell as much as you know, not as little as you know? Okay.
Now I want to turn to your statement at page 17 of the bundle in front of you - do you have it, paragraph 9A.4. Are you there? Now you say there that prior to the raid in Botswana, you were instructed by Lieut Willem Coetzee to enter Botswana.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: Am I correct if in time I'm putting this round about February/March 1985, which is about three months before the raid? Would that be correct?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER:
"In order to verify information provided to Security Forces, concerning the whereabouts of ANC cadres and the existence or not of safehouses where they resided, I used a false passport and entered Botswana and proceeded to Gaberone"
Now you said later in your evidence-in-chief this morning, you said that the final instruction was to kill everyone in certain houses. Remember that?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
MR BERGER: And the reason that you were to kill everyone in those houses was because in those houses you were going to find MK members who were armed.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
MR BERGER: When you were given the original instruction by Willem Coetzee to go into Botswana, were you instructed to spy on MK soldiers in particular, or on ANC members generally?
MR OLIFANT: MK soldiers, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: Okay. Now in paragraph number 2 on that page you say:
"In Gaberone, I observed specific vehicles and persons and the houses at the addresses as provided to me. I stayed in Gaberone for approximately 1 week, whereafter I returned to the border with a bus."
Those houses that you were observing and those persons, they were only people, MK soldiers involved in MK activities, is that correct?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
MR BERGER: How did you know that they were MK soldiers?
MR OLIFANT: Well we made a follow-up of information which we had received from the sources, from the informers.
MR BERGER: Did you have dealings with the informers? You personally.
MR OLIFANT: Well I could also - I was a co-handler, I ...(intervention)
MR BERGER: With who?
MR OLIFANT: With Mr Coetzee. So whenever Mr Coetzee interviewed an informer I would always be there and listened at some time.
MR BERGER: So Mr Coetzee's sources were your sources?
MR OLIFANT: Not my sources, but Mr Coetzee's sources.
MR BERGER: And they told you that certain people were MK soldiers?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: And they then described these people for you?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: And I take it they pointed out these people in the so-called terrorist album.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
MR BERGER: There where all the photographs were?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: So you knew what these soldiers looked like.
MR OLIFANT: Well, a soldier ...(indistinct)
MR BERGER: Well Mr Olifant ...(intervention)
JUDGE MOTATA: Don't run away, just answer the question please.
MR BERGER: I'm giving you every opportunity to be open and honest and frank with this Committee, I'm not asking you difficult questions. My question is, you knew what these soldiers looked like because you had seen their photographs in the album.
MR OLIFANT: Well more-or-less I had an idea of the description.
MR BERGER: But you saw the photographs in the album.
MR OLIFANT: But to see a photograph and to see a person in reality, it sometimes doesn't match.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Olifant we know that one is paper and the other human flesh. The point of the question is that you were asked to observe the activities of a person whose features, whose facial features you knew, not so? It was pointed out to you, "go see Mr X, go see Abrahams, see what he's up to". His photo was in a, possibly in an album, so you knew exactly how he looked.
MR OLIFANT: Well, Mr Chairperson, not exactly. I would have identified the person that okay fine, you know there is an appearance from the album which had been shown by Mr Coetzee or by the informer, but I will more-or-less try to, you know, to bring the picture together.
MR BERGER: Did you have the pictures with you when you went up to Gaberone?
MR OLIFANT: No.
MR BERGER: You had vehicle registration numbers?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: Did you have the registration numbers with you when you went up to Gaberone?
MR OLIFANT: I had it in my mind, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: In your head?
MR OLIFANT: In my mind.
MR BERGER: How many registration numbers did you have in your head when you went up to Gaberone?
MR OLIFANT: If I may recollect it, I think there were about two, two vehicles, because the houses I observed was only three houses.
MR BERGER: Who did you go up with?
MR OLIFANT: I went on my own when I went to stay for a week.
MR BERGER: What about Mapule Sekonyela?
MR OLIFANT: Well Mapule Sekonyane is one of the sources who actually showed me one of the houses, let's say one or two - one of houses, that's right, ja. I think it's only one she showed me.
MR BERGER: Is her name Sekonjane or Sekonyela?
MR OLIFANT: Sekonyane, Mapule Sekonyane.
MR BERGER: Sekonyane.
MR OLIFANT: Sekonyane, that's correct Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: In your stsatement at page 23 and 24, you talk about Mapule Sekonyela, is that a mistake?
MR OLIFANT: Mapule Sekonyane.
MR BERGER: Yes, I'm asking, is the spelling of this informer's name incorrect? If you have a look, page 23, paragraph 8.
MR OLIFANT: Ja, it's right, the spelling is right there.
MR MALAN: Is it Sekonyela?
MR OLIFANT: No, it's wrong, sorry, it's wrong, it's Sekonyane, it's a "g".
JUDGE MOTATA: But right at the end there is a "la" again, Sekonyela.
MR OLIFANT: No, but the way they pronounce it, it's Sekonyane. Mapule Sekonyane from Mofolo - from Molapo. Sorry, Mr Chairperson, from Molapo.
JUDGE MOTATA: No, I'm Sotho speaking, we can't pronounce in Sotho other than what is written. Motata, you can't pronounce it any other way and spell it Motata, for instance.
MR OLIFANT: But the right pronounciation is Mapule Sekonyane.
JUDGE MOTATA: Thank you, you may proceed.
MR BERGER: You say from Mofolo.
MR OLIFANT: Molapo.
MR BERGER: Did you used to go into Gaberone with her?
MR OLIFANT: Yes, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: To identify these houses?
MR OLIFANT: I only went once with her in this occasion to go identify a house.
MR BERGER: Why, when I asked you who did you go with, you said you went alone?
MR OLIFANT: No, no, I thought the day I went for observation I went on my own. Because I heard you quoting the bus, that I came back by bus. I said yes.
MR BERGER: Mr Olifant, I'm thoroughly confused about the number of times you went to Gaberone before the raid. I thought, as did Mr Visser, that you went twice.
CHAIRPERSON: No, Mr Berger, I think to be fair to the witness, he did testify that he went there on a number of occasions, but the preparatory excursions for this incident amounted to two.
MR BERGER: Okay.
But now the preparatory excursions for this raid, the two that the Judge has just spoken about, how long before the raid did you go on those excursions?
MR MALAN: No Mr Berger, we're confusing again. If I understood it correctly, he went on a number of occasions with the informer, this Mapule Sekonyane, or wahtever she was, then again at a later stage he went by himself. And he deals with that in what should be paragraph 9 on page 24. This was the only time that he went into Botswana under instructions directly of Coetzee. He didn't go twice. He went on a number of occasions in a earlier group of general intelligence gathering, then he was instructed and he went as a second time a second time, but after a number of occasions on a first time and then he went without the informer, he went alone, by himself. And the second time that he went into Botswana, that he referred to, related to the raid, or what he understood to be the raid, at least at the later stage, was when he went in with the military from Hammanskraal.
MR BERGER: Okay.
So Mr Olifant, would it be correct to say that approximately three months before the raid - and if I've got it wrong, just tell me, you went in, in and out, in and out a number of times with Mapule. Then in May, which is now a month before the raid, or maybe less than a month, you went into Gaberone by yourself, to carry outr certain intelligence gathering. And then you went into Botswana on the third major occassion, when you went with the raid.
MR OLIFANT: That's right.
MR MALAN: Yes, that's how I have it, Mr Berger.
MR BERGER: Alright. Let's take the first number of visits that you went in with the informer, let's deal with that first. That was where you observed three houses.
MR OLIFANT: No, no, for the first time, no, she only went to show me a house.
MR BERGER: One house?
MR OLIFANT: One of the houses, that's right Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: But now this is when you're going in and out at least three or four times a week.
MR OLIFANT: Despite this mission here we had something else to do.
MR BERGER: What else were you doing?
MR OLIFANT: She was actually infiltrated with some other organisations except ANC. She was also involved in PAC, she was also involved in AZAPO activities.
MR BERGER: Alright, but ...(intervention)
MR OLIFANT: If you can just say, it was Botswana, Lesotho.
MR BERGER: Is she still alive?
MR OLIFANT: Not that I know of, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: Now when you say - please help me, when you say at page 17, numbered paragraph 2:
"In Gaberone I observed specific vehicles and persons and the houses at the addresses as provided to me."
which excursion are you referring to? Are you referring to with Mapule, without Mapule, with the raiding party?
MR OLIFANT: Without Mapule, without the raiding party, when I went on my own.
MR BERGER: Okay. So paragraph 2, we're looking at May 1985?
MR OLIFANT: Plus-minus, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: And that was when you stayed for a week?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: Did you speak to anyone there?
MR OLIFANT: The occupants of the houses, Mr Chairperson?
MR BERGER: Anybody, yes.
MR OLIFANT: No.
MR BERGER: So you were just observing?
MR OLIFANT: I was just observing the houses, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: And which people did you observe?
MR OLIFANT: The movement of those particular houses which I had been given the addresses.
MR BERGER: Yes, but who were these people?
MR OLIFANT: I can't recall their names.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you recall the addresses?
MR OLIFANT: It was Broadhurst and Gaberone. I think Gaberone North.
MR BERGER: You can't be more specific than that?
MR OLIFANT: No.
MR BERGER: Do you remember the vehicle registration numbers?
MR OLIFANT: I cannot recall it, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Olifant, you were able to memorise it then on such an important mission. You only had two of these registration numbers to remember, why can't you tell us that now?
MR OLIFANT: Mr Chairperson, it has been a long time really, honestly I cannot remember the vehicles' registration numbers.
MR BERGER: Okay, well one name that you've given us today is Abrahams. You said that was a name that was given to you.
MR OLIFANT: Ja, I quoted one of the names actually. The name of Abrahams I do recall it you know.
MR BERGER: Okay. Now I'm going to ask you, in this week when you were observing these three houses, were you observing Abrahams?
MR OLIFANT: I think one of the houses was actually Abrahams, yes. The precise name which I remember is Tim WIlliams, that I remember very clearly.
CHAIRPERSON: Well was his house one of the houses you had under observation?
MR OLIFANT: That's right, yes, Tim Williams, I remembered very clearly.
CHAIRPERSON: No, he's abode, were you observing his house? Mr Williams.
MR OLIFANT: Abrahams?
CHAIRPERSON: Williams.
MR OLIFANT: Williams, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: You say you're sure of Williams.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you observing his house that week?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And you say you have a stronger than just a vague recollection of the name of Abrahams. Was Abrahams one of the people that you were targeting that week?
MR OLIFANT: Yes, if I may remember the name, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And was his house one of the houses which you observed that week?
MR OLIFANT: Excuse me, are you talking about Mr Tim Williams or Mr Abrahams?
CHAIRPERSON: Abrahams. We're done with Williams now.
MR OLIFANT: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON: Abrahams. Did you observe his house that week?
MR OLIFANT: I think that was one of his houses actually.
CHAIRPERSON: So we've got two out of three, we'll be lucky if we get all.
MR BERGER: Well Mr Olifant, you said you couldn't remember the names but now you're getting there, so try a little harder. One of the houses you say was Tim Williams' house. One of the houses was Abrahams' house. Were they ...(intervention)
MR OLIFANT: I'm not sure about Abrahams house, but I'm saying that it could have been one of the names which I'm trying to ...
MR BERGER: Where was Williams' house?
MR OLIFANT: It was in, somewhere in Gaberone, either north or Braodhurst.
MR BERGER: Any other names?
MR OLIFANT: No, I cannot recall any other.
CHAIRPERSON: Whose house was in Broadhurst?
MR OLIFANT: Mr Chairperson, it's so difficult for me to say that Mr Tim Williams' house was in Broadhurst or it was in Gaberone North, because it has been so long a time you know. I have been in Botswana again, so I totally forgot about ...
MR BERGER: Now these houses that you were observing, you say were on the outskirsts of Gaberone?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
MR BERGER: Not in the centre of Gaberone?
MR OLIFANT: No, no, no, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: Well Urial Abrahams lived in the centre of Gaberone, so it couldn't have been his house you were lookig at.
MR OLIFANT: Centre of Gaberone, there are no houses, it's only a commercial area actually.
MR BERGER: And you were looking at a house in Broadhurst you say.
MR OLIFANT: Broadhurst and Gaberone North.
MR BERGER: And while you were watching these houses, did you also observe Mr Williams?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
MR BERGER: And you observed Mr Abrahams?
MR OLIFANT: About Mr Abrahams, I'm not quite sure.
MR BERGER: You're not sure what, you're not sure if you observed him, you're not sure if you saw him?
MR OLIFANT: I'm not sure about the name, whether it is Abrahams or not, but I'm trying to actually recall him you know, whether it was exact ... Like for instance, I'm saying about Mr Tim Williams, I am quite correct that Mr Williams, I observed his house and that is the name.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Now Mr Williams', what did you observe there? Did you see him come in and out of the house?
MR OLIFANT: Yes, I saw him going, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Was there a motor vehicle which you could identify that visited that house?
MR OLIFANT: I can't recall whether it was a motor vehicle ...
CHAIRPERSON: What did he do that frustrated the South African Police? Why was he now a target?
MR OLIFANT: Excuse me, Mr Chairperson?
CHAIRPERSON: Why was Tim Williams a target?
MR OLIFANT: Well according to the information he was a member of the MK.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, but you were the person that was supposed to provide the information, not so?
MR OLIFANT: Not really provide the ifnormation, it's actually just to verify the information which they already obtained from the ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: So how did you verify that Tim Williams was a member of MK?
MR OLIFANT: Whatever ...(indistinct), Mr Chairperson, is what I reported to Mr Coetzee, that: "Okay, I saw Mr Williams and he was there", and that was it.
CHAIRPERSON: No, you were supposed to verify information that Mr Tim Williams was a member of the Umkhonto weSizwe ...(intervention)
MR OLIFANT: Verify the houses and verify the people, whether those were their respective places or not.
CHAIRPERSON: So what were you watching Tim Williams for?
MR OLIFANT: He was a member of the MK.
CHAIRPERSON: How do you know?
MR OLIFANT: Not that I knew, but according to the information ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: So how can you say so?
MR OLIFANT: Well that was what I was, I mean I was briefed by Mr Coetzee.
CHAIRPERSON: And for what reason did you have to observe him? Now you know, everybody knows he's a member of MK, why must you observe him?
MR OLIFANT: Well that was the instruction given by Mr Coetzee.
CHAIRPERSON: Now what did you have to observe about Tim Williams?
MR OLIFANT: Well Mr Coetzee knew better than ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: What did you have to observe?
MR OLIFANT: To check whether he stays there or not.
CHAIRPERSON: So you had to verify his address?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: So you were given an address and told: "Go verify that Tim Williams stays at number so and so, so and so street, whatever suburb, Gaberone"?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
MR BERGER: How did you know that the person whom you saw walk into that house was Tim Wiliams?
MR OLIFANT: Well whoever I might have seen during that time of observation, I had to go and compare to what Mr Coetzee knew and what I'd seen.
CHAIRPERSON: No look, you were supposed to verify that Tim Williams stays at number so and so, so and so street in Gaberone. Correct? And that's why you are telling me now that was the reason for your observation there. Now you saw, at best ...(indistinct) a male person walking to that house, that address that was given to you, how were you going to go back to Coetzee and say: "Yes, it is true, Tim Williams does live in that house"? How did you identify the person, this male person that went into this house? Did you go up to him and ask him is he Tim Williams?
MR OLIFANT: When Mr Coetzee instructed me to go to those specific addresses ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we know that.
MR OLIFANT: ... Mr Coetzee, he gave me the address and he gave me you know, a description of that particular person and the surname. I checked if this you know, matched, that means that was the person.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, is that how you were going to ...(indisitnct)?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And did you verify that in that way?
MR OLIFANT: Well, Mr Tim Williams, yes, the description was really fitting in and another address as well, I can't remember the surname, it was as well, even the vehicle as well which he was driving. And the only thing, I don't recall the third house.
CHAIRPERSON: Now tell me, in an attempt to cut this long story short, afterwards, after the attack, you must have been able to assess which houses were attacked, not so?
MR OLIFANT: After the attack?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR OLIFANT: Well after the attack there was nothing.
CHAIRPERSON: When you came back home, were you not able to find out or assess whether you played a part in correctly pinpointing a residence which was scheduled to be attacked in the next 48 hours? Is it not so? That is why you're making the application. You were responsible for the attack on certain houses, not so?
MR OLIFANT: No that's correct, I do agree with you.
CHAIRPERSON: But to what extent did you play a role in that way, in the attack on the various houses there in Gaberone that night? How many of those houses that you pointed out were really attacked?
MR OLIFANT: There were three houses.
CHAIRPERSON: Three houses. Can you name them, or give their addresses, or ...?
MR OLIFANT: The right address, really honestly, I cannot tell you, but I gave ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell us who died in a particular house?
MR OLIFANT: No, I'm not able to identify the people who ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: All you can say is that you pointed out three houses that day and as far as you can remember, all of those houses were attacked that night.
MR OLIFANT: Yes, they were attacked.
CHAIRPERSON: You can't today tell us which houses and which not?
MR OLIFANT: No.
MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.
MR MALAN: Sorry, you're response was that all three were attacked, but your earlier evidence was that one of them, the one that you had to go to, you couldn't find.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR MALAN: So only two were attacked?
MR OLIFANT: The three houses in Gaberone were attacked, but the house in so-called ...(indistinct) area, which was the outskirts of Gaberone, that's the house which, you know during the ...(intervention)
MR MALAN: Then it's my mistake.
CHAIRPERSON: I just want to clarify something. Those three houses you referred to, are houses that you pointed out.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And they were all attacked.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: You're not talking about the one that was on the outskirts of Gaberone.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr Olifant, the houses that you believe were attacked, were the houses that you had kept under observation during your reconnaissance there, in about May 1985.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: And those houses were either in Broadhurst, or Gaberone North.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: All three?
MR OLIFANT: All three houses.
MR BERGER: Not Gaberone East, Gaberone North, is that correct?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
MR BERGER: Now the people that you kept under observation, Tim Williams, Abrahams - there were others, am I right?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
MR BERGER: Do you see any of those people here today?
MR OLIFANT: No. No.
MR BERGER: Well I can tell you, Mr Abrahams is here today. You saw someone coming to give me information while you were testifying?
MR OLIFANT: Yes, I saw someone coming to you, that's right.
MR BERGER: Mr Abrahams, would you stand?
CHAIRPERSON: Will Mr Abrahams please stand up.
MR ABRAHAMS STANDS UP
CHAIRPERSON: I'm told that that gentleman who stood up there now is Mr Abrahams. Do you recognise him?
MR OLIFANT: No.
CHAIRPERSON: Doesn't he look near the person whom you observed?
MR OLIFANT: No, no.
MR BERGER: The house that he was living in was situated right opposite the University of Botswana, in Gaberone, not on the outskirts, in Gaberone. He moved out of that house two weeks before the attack. So could it be that when you were observing the house, it was in that two-week period, before the attack, during which Mr Abrahams had already left the house? Is that possible?
MR OLIFANT: Well it is possible.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes there's another permutation, Mr Berger, is that if we're talking of the attack being in the middle of June, I think the 14th, and he refers to this reconnaissance as in May, then we have at least a two week gap between what could possibly be his last opportunity of observation, and the actual attack. So those two weeks could have also provided an opportunity for Mr Abrahams to move residence.
MR BERGER: Yes, well what I'm suggesting to Mr Olifant is that, if he doesn't recognise Mr Abrahams, is it not possible then that he was observing the house after Mr Abrahams had already moved out? In other words, in that two-week period, and that's why he doesn't recognise Mr Abrahams today.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, you're suggesting that his reconnaissance took place, maybe in the beginning of June?
MR BERGER: Maybe right at the beginning of June, yes.
Is that possible?
MR OLIFANT: No, it was before June, far June.
MR BERGER: Far, far before June?
MR OLIFANT: That's right.
CHAIRPERSON: Well the 30th of May is not far before June. You say you had this observation in May, and I make this comment in your favour, that in May it could have extended to the 30th of May, or thereabouts. Are you convinced that you left Botswana from that trip, before the 1st of June?
MR OLIFANT: That's right.
CHAIRPERSON: Answer this, was one of those three houses near or in the vicinity of the university there? Do you know where that university is?
MR OLIFANT: Well I do have an idea.
CHAIRPERSON: Good. Now one of the house you had under observation, was that in the vicinity of that university that you've got an idea of?
MR OLIFANT: Well it's possible, but - if I may try to recollect about the house next to the university ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Well I'm not even saying it's next to, I'm saying it's maybe in the vicinity.
MR OLIFANT: In the vicinity of the university? Well it's possible, Mr Chairperson, it's possible. It has been a long time now.
CHAIRPERSON: No well I'd like an answer better than just a possibility. You know more-or-less where this university is, you know more-or-less where you observed where the houses were situated which you observed. Now all I'm asking you is a simple question, was one of these houses that you observed that time, in the vicinity of that university?
MR OLIFANT: I can't recall it, Mr Chairperson.
JUDGE MOTATA: When you went to Botswana, there was one main hotel there, Gaberone Sun, do you recall Gaberone Sun?
MR OLIFANT: That was called Gaberone Sun, Mr Chairperson.
JUDGE MOTATA: And if you go down along the same street, going down Lubatsi Way, that's where you would meet the University of Botswana. Do you recall that?
MR OLIFANT: Lubatsi, that's correct Mr Chairperson.
JUDGE MOTATA: So I'm correct when I say Gaberone Sun and the University of Botswana are along the same roads?
MR OLIFANT: You're partly correct, Mr Chairperson, there was a house next to Lubatsi Road.
JUDGE MOTATA: Thank you.
MR BERGER: Okay. Just before the lunch adjournment I want to establish, that house on Lubatsi Road, down the way from the Gaberone Sun, that was one of the three houses that you kept under observation.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: Perhaps this would be an appropriate time to take the adjournment.
CHAIRPERSON: And you an idea in terms of your instructions, that someone who was a target, lived in that house?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: What turned out to be, or people who turned out to be targets, but certain names were mentioned to you. Now when you observed this house near the university, were you able to confirm that this would-be target in fact stayed at that address that you were observing? Was that a positive report that you cuold give?
MR OLIFANT: Well like I've said, Mr Chairperson, that there was one of the houses where I did not really give an effective report about the house. I cannot recall whether I - I might have not seen the person who lives in that house, or I saw different people in that particular house.
CHAIRPERSON: I see. So are you telling us that you in fact gave a negative report about the house near the university? That you went back to Coetzee and said: "Look, I didn't see the person you mentioned at that house, it's possibly not the correct address."?
MR OLIFANT: Ja, that's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Now think very carefully, is that what you told Coetzee, or not, or can't you remember, or what is the position?
MR OLIFANT: I do recall that one of the houses ... but not precisely which house. One of the houses I might have given to Mr Coetzee that: "Look Mr Coetzee, here I never saw anybody, or I saw different persons, or ..." ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Now let's go back again now. The house that you now finally are able to recall, was one of the houses you observed and it was situated near the University of Botswana. Did you identify a person to associate with that address?
MR OLIFANT: I can't recollect, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Now, this is the important question. If there was somebody that came in there that you should have associated with that address, it could only have been Abrahams, not so?
MR OLIFANT: Well it's possible.
CHAIRPERSON: By the looks of things, it could only have been Abrahams, he was one of the persons mentioned as a person who should be observed for the purposes of confirming his address.
MR OLIFANT: It's possible, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And today you are unable to identify that person. I know it's some 15 years on, but you say you are unable to identify Mr Abrahams today.
MR OLIFANT: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, we'll take the lunch adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
MANUEL ANTONIO OLIFANT: (s.u.o.)
CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Berger, let's get on with the tunnel, I hope there's light at the end of it.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: (cont)
Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr Olifant, Tim Williams lived in a house in Broadhurst. Now you say that you observed a house in Broadhurst.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: Would that have been Tim Willaims' house?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: Do you remember what car or vehicle you saw at that house?
MR OLIFANT: I cannot remember the house - I mean the car, sorry.
MR BERGER: What if I tell you it was a powder-blue bakkie? Does that ring any bells?
MR OLIFANT: No, I can't recollect it.
MR BERGER: Did you see Tim Williams at that house?
MR OLIFANT: Yes, I saw him, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: How did you know it was Tim Williams?
MR OLIFANT: According to the description and the photo which I'd seen in the album, and that was it.
MR BERGER: So you were certain that it was Tim Williams?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: So what did you have to confirm now? Why were you sent there to do this observation, what was the actual reason?
MR OLIFANT: The reason to keep observation at those particular houses, it was actually you know, to confirm whether those houses were really existing or not.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright. Any other reason?
MR OLIFANT: That's all.
CHAIRPERSON: Well let's be fair to you, was it not also to confirm that a particular person in whom the Security Police of South Africa had an interest, was in fact a resident at that house you were observing?
MR OLIFANT: Well Mr Coetzee, he never actually explained to me about that matter. Maybe it could have been part of ...(indistinct).
CHAIRPERSON: Alright. So all you had to do is to go back and say: "Yes, that house exists"?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: That is all?
MR OLIFANT: And whether I've seen a person similar to the person whom I'd been ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Well that's what I'm getting at. And you say no, Mr Coetzee didn't mention it. Now come on now, tell us exactly what was your job there. 'Cause we're wasting time and we're getting more confused, and after all, it's your application, so tell us.
MR OLIFANT: Well it was to ...(indistinct) whether those houses were there, even the occupants of the houses, I mean the people whom he had given the description about, were really existing or not.
CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by "existing"?
MR OLIFANT: Well were they really staying there at those particular houses.
CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, I just want to be absolutely fair to you, are you still comfortable with using the English language, or would you like to use a vernacular?
MR OLIFANT: Well Mr Chairperson, I've been using the English all along.
CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm not concerned about how long you were speaking English, or using English. Are you quite comfortable with English, or would you prefer to go into the vernacular?
MR OLIFANT: I'm comfortable, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So you're not misunderstanding the questions or ...?
MR OLIFANT: No, no.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Now please tell me if I'm wrong then, because we seem to be struggling. Your job was to observe these houses and to confirm that they existed in fact, correct?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Secondly, you were given names to associate with that house and in some instances, as I understand you, a description of how such a person would look, and you had to confirm whether that person so described to you, was in fact likely to be the resident of that house you were observing.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Anything else?
MR OLIFANT: No, nothing in addition, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you ever asked to see if there's any innocent people that were also living in that house?
MR OLIFANT: Well not innocent, but to - if whether there was any other person in exception to the people who ... that's right, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And that was your job.
MR OLIFANT: That's right, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you know why you had to do that?
MR OLIFANT: I did not know, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever find out afterwards why you had to do that?
MR OLIFANT: Well I only realised after the raid.
CHAIRPERSON: After the raid. Did you know anything before the raid, as to why you were party to these activities?
MR OLIFANT: No, I wasn't aware of anything.
CHAIRPERSON: When you pointed out the houses to the military, did you not know why you were pointing out these houses?
MR OLIFANT: Well there now I knew for a fact that no, it was now - we had been briefed at the camp, so I knew what would happen.
CHAIRPERSON: Well tell us, what did you understand?
MR OLIFANT: That each one of those houses which I had identified, were to be raided.
CHAIRPERSON: What did you understand by "raided"?
MR OLIFANT: Well it's to get into the house, you kill the occupants of the houses and thereafter the instruction to the military personnel was to actually place a landmine after the raid.
CHAIRPERSON: At each house?
MR OLIFANT: At each house, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether that occurred?
MR OLIFANT: Some of the houses, Mr Chairperson, it did occur.
CHAIRPERSON: Now when you observed the house of Tim Williams, did you see whether there were people other than Tim Williams, who lived there?
MR OLIFANT: I can't recall, Mr Chairperson, whether I've seen an additional person.
CHAIRPERSON: And when you pointed out, did you point out his house on the afternoon of the day of the night that this attack took place?
MR OLIFANT: It was during the day, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: You pointed out the residence of Tim Williams?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Why did you point that house out?
MR OLIFANT: Well it was one of the houses which was actually selected into three houses.
CHAIRPERSON: By whom?
MR OLIFANT: By Mr Coetzee. Willem Coetzee.
CHAIRPERSON: So is that the reason you went to point out Tim Willaims' house, because you were told by Coetzee to point it out?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: To the military.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: When did he tell you that?
MR OLIFANT: The day when Mr Anton Pretorius took me to Hammanskraal.
CHAIRPERSON: I see. Was it the same day and just before you went to Hammanskraal, for your training?
MR OLIFANT: Well it was during that period. I can't say whether it was previous, or it was exactly the same day.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, but near enough. So when you went to Hammanskraal - let's put it this way, did you ask Mr Coetzee: "Why do I have to point out these houses"?
MR OLIFANT: I can't recall whether I did ask him or not, but I know for a fact that as a junior I had not say.
CHAIRPERSON: Now when you went to Hammanskraal, you knew you're going to Hammanskraal and you knew that at some time you're going to have to point out the houses in Gaberone, why did you think you're going to have to point out these houses, at that stage?
MR OLIFANT: Well when I was told that I would be going to Hammanskraal, I never knew that I will be still going into Gaberone, I thought maybe I was just going to go to Hammanskraal in order to go brief the people, as Mr Coetzee said no, I must go and brief the Military Intelligence.
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, we'll come to the briefing now. You just told me that some time before you were told to go to Hammanskraal, you can't remember if it's on the same day or the day before, or some time before that, you were told by Coetzee that you're going to have to go point out these houses in Gaberone. Is that not so?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: So when you went to Hammanskraal, you knew you're going to have to go point out these houses, correct?
MR OLIFANT: Well I do agree with you, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Now at that stage, why did you think you're going to have to point out these houses?
MR OLIFANT: Well I did not know exactly what will happen.
CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you ask: "Why do I have to go point out these houses"?
MR OLIFANT: As a junior, Mr Chairperson, I had no right to ask.
CHAIRPERSON: Well what did you think then? Did you have any suspicions?
MR OLIFANT: Well to be quite honest with you, Mr Chairperson, I can't recollect whether I thought of something negative, or ...
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So you were told by Coetzee that you have to go point out these houses, and you didn't know why and you can't tell us whether you had suspicions or whatever. So nothing untoward crossed your mind at that stage. Then you went to Hammanskraal.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Then you received this training.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Now at Hammanskraal, did you find out what's going to happen when you point out those houses in Gaberone?
MR OLIFANT: Well immediately when I stepped into Hammanskraal and I saw plus-minus hundred-and-something military personnel, then I realised that no, something will be going wrong.
CHAIRPERSON: Like waht?
MR OLIFANT: Well you see military you always ...(indistinct) no, ...(indistinct) instruction somewhere.
CHAIRPERSON: Well what did you think?
MR OLIFANT: Well I immediately focused that no, Botswana was the main target, maybe this is now leading to Botswana.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Did you connect it to the houses that you'd observed?
MR OLIFANT: Excuse me, Mr Chairperson?
CHAIRPERSON: When you got to Hammanskraal, you saw all this military personnel, you immediately thought well, something is going to happen.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: This idea that something is going to happen, did you connect it to the three houses, or four houses that you'd observed when you were last in Botswana?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson, since I heard Mr Coetzee saying that: "Can you still remember those houses in Botswana?"
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So you had a fair idea that whatever was going to happen, was going to happen at those four houses.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Now why did you - or let me put it this way. I think you testified in your evidence-in-chief that you were taught there in your training how to attack houses and the occupants and how to defend yourself, correct?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: When you received that training, why did you think you were receiving this training?
MR OLIFANT: After I had realised that no, something will be happening into Botswana, then we got training. It wasn't immediately. When I to Hammanskraal, I did not receive immediately training. Thereon we had to set first for so-called assessing the targets.
CHAIRPERSON: We'll come back to assessing the targets, it's very interesting that you raise that.
Why did you think you were being trained to attack people and their houses and how to defend yourself? You.
MR OLIFANT: Well, during the training I immediately thought that no, this time we're really going to the war.
CHAIRPERSON: You were going to be part of this attack, isn't it?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And they were teaching you how to do it.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And they were also teaching you how to defend yourself in the event of things turning sour in your attack.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Now how long were you at Hammanskraal?
MR OLIFANT: Plus-minus five - five to six days, that was that.
CHAIRPERSON: And how long did this training take?
MR OLIFANT: Well the training used to take ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Over how many days were you trained?
MR OLIFANT: Let's say plus-minus three days.
CHAIRPERSON: Three days. Did I understand you correctly, prior to your training this assessment of the targets was in process?
MR OLIFANT: That's right, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Now explain to us what this assessment was all about.
MR OLIFANT: Well first of all, I will just say on my side I was told how much I knew about the area. I then said: "Okay, I have been at this place, the place looks like this, I've seen this, I've seen that", whatever. And well, there were other targets. Altogether, if I'm not mistaken, there were plus-minus about 13 targets.
CHAIRPERSON: 13?
MR OLIFANT: 13 targets, if I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure about the targets, but plus-minus.
CHAIRPERSON: Now let's talk about the targets that you were involved in. How were those targets assessed?
MR OLIFANT: Well they needed to know how to get there, what is the addresses, what I've seen. Exactly the same report which I had given to Mr Willem Coetzee, it's the very same thing which I really disclosed to them that: "No, I've seen this, I've seen that." You know they were actually asking me whether I knew about people, I said: "No, I do not know about the people". Whether the people inside the houses were armed, I said: "No, I do not know about that". Well that everything ...(indistinct) to really send their own intelligence once more to go and gather the information.
CHAIRPERSON: Afterwards, did you assess this attack and work out who was killed and who wasn't killed, as far as your participation was concerned?
MR OLIFANT: After the raid, Mr Chairperson?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR OLIFANT: Yes, I did ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Even a couple of days afterwards, when you were back in South Africa.
MR OLIFANT: Well no, while in there there was no time ...
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I accept that, but afterwards when you were back in South Africa, were you able to assess and get information as to how successful this raid was?
MR OLIFANT: Well I did see on the newspaper, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: No, but amongst yourselves. Did you Coetzee tell you: "Well done", when he handed you this envelope, "it was a very good performance and so many people died", etcetera, etcetera?
MR OLIFANT: Well Mr Chairperson, Mr Coetzee never actually came back to me in order to give me credit for that mission.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay. From the newspaper reports that you read, you say, were you able to assess how successful the operation was?
MR OLIFANT: Mr Coetzee warned me that I'm the only one who knows about that and I don't have to really comment with the other colleagues of mine. So I couldn't really ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Are you able to say how successful the operation was? Were all the targets killed that were intended to be killed?
MR OLIFANT: Well some of the targets were really ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Were all the houses you pointed out attacked?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And in the papers there were allegations, at best for you, that there were certain innocent people that had died in this attack.
MR OLIFANT: I do agree with you, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Some of whom were, according to the allegations and the reports, were normal residents of the area and normal occupants of certain houses which you pointed as targets.
MR OLIFANT: It was indeed stated on the newspaper, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you worry about that, that there was at least in once instance, a real juvenile that was killed?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson, I was concerned.
CHAIRPERSON: But didn't you see children staying in such houses when you were observing these houses?
MR OLIFANT: No, not ...(indistinct)
CHAIRPERSON: Not at all?
MR OLIFANT: No Mr Chairperson, really, I never saw any child.
CHAIRPERSON: And women?
MR OLIFANT: No.
CHAIRPERSON: You never saw any women at these houses?
MR OLIFANT: No, no. No.
CHAIRPERSON: So the houses, am I correct, that you observed during the period you did the observation, only male people entered those houses and drove those cars into the yards of those houses? Am I correct, do I understand you correctly?
MR OLIFANT: Yes, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And how long did you have these houses under observation?
MR OLIFANT: Plus-minus five to six days, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And during that five to six days at those houses you pointed out, you never once saw a female enter or come out of that house, nor did you at any stage, see a child going in or coming out or staying in any of those houses?
MR OLIFANT: Mr Chairperson, I don't remember seeing any of the, any minor age in those houses.
MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr Olifant, you say that when Mr Coetzee told you that you were going to Hammnskraal, he never told you that you were going to be training for a mission into Botswana.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: And he never told you that you were going to be involved in a mission with the South African Defence Force?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: Have a look at page 18 please, of the first bundle, paragraph 5, page 18. Let me read to you what you say there:
"Approximately three months after I had returned from Botswana, Lieut Coetzee called me into his office and asked me if I could still remember the houses in Botswana, which I had observed. I confirmed that I could still remember the houses, as well as the addresses. And he then told me that Lieut Anton Pretorius would be taking me to a place where I would be training for a mission into Botswana, with members of the South African Defence Force. I was also informed that I would receive a full briefing on the mission into Botswana, later. I was then taken to a South African Defence Force base near Hammanskraal."
Now which is the truth, Mr Olifant, what you've been telling the Committee today, or what is written here in pargraph 5 on page 18? Because they contradict one another.
MR OLIFANT: What I'm telling the Commission today.
MR BERGER: Well why then did you confirm this as being correct earlier this morning?
MR OLIFANT: Well it might have been a mistake.
CHAIRPERSON: Well what's it doing in your affidavit then, if it's wrong? Is that also another mistake?
MR BERGER: What part of it is a mistake, Mr Olifant?
CHAIRPERSON: Did he answer that last question, Mr Berger?
MR BERGER: I'm trying to focus him, Chairperson, he didn't.
CHAIRPERSON: You say your confirmation this morning of your statement, was possibly a mistake, is that correct?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: I'm asking you a different question, that you now say what you told this Commission is the truth and what you say in your statement is wrong, it's not the truth. Why is it in your statement, if it's wrong?
MR OLIFANT: Well I think during the - at the time when I was briefing my legal adivser about this matter, I might have concluded what I was ...(indistinct) to tell him.
CHAIRPERSON: What does that mean?
MR OLIFANT: No, by saying that I was told by Mr Pretorius that I will be going to train. I was told by Mr Pretorius that I would be going to Hammanskraal, Mr Anton Pretorius will be taking me to Hammanskraal.
MR BERGER: No, Mr Olifant, what you say in the statement is that Coetzee told you that Pretorius would be taking you to a place where you would be training for a mission into Botswana, with the South African Defence Force. You say that that never happened? He never told you that?
MR OLIFANT: No, no. He said to me that he will be taking me to somewhere where I will be briefing the members of the South African Defence Force, the Military Intelligence.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that all he told you? That is Coetzee.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: He never asked you anything else?
MR OLIFANT: He didn't ask me anything, he just informed me about that, that I should prepare myself and I must have the clothes for about a week because I'll be going to Hammanskraal to go meet the other members of the Military Intelligence.
MR BERGER: So your legal representative misunderstood you when you gave instructions?
MR OLIFANT: Or I might have made a mistake during the ...
MR BERGER: Well which one is it?
MR OLIFANT: I might have actually - you know, actually I anticipated whatever I wanted to, you know, disclose.
MR BERGER: And then when you confirmed it again this morning you made another mistake, because you read it, you confirmed it, but it's not the truth?
MR OLIFANT: Well it's possible.
MR BERGER: Let's go back to the two houses. You say Tim Williams' house, you only saw Tim Williams, you didn't see anyone else?
MR OLIFANT: No.
MR BERGER: And you were observing this house for a week?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, all three houses for a week, that's correct Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: So you would observe Tim Williams, go away, come back and so on?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct yes, I was a pedestrian, not mobile.
MR BERGER: And then as far as Abrahams' house, the one down the road, Lubatsi, opposite the university - in fact, the house itself was situated in Pudulogo Crescent. Do you remember the name of that street?
MR OLIFANT: No, I can't recall it anymore, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: You say you never saw Abrahams there at that house.
MR MALAN: Mr Berger, just for my understanding, initially y ou put it to you him that the house was directly opposite the university, is this Puldulogo Crescent, is that off or is it still directly opposite? Because as I understood my colleague, Judge Motata, the university was on Lubatsi Road.
MR BERGER: Mr Malan, it's in Pudulogo Crescent, opposite the university, right opposite the University of Botswana.
MR MALAN: Right opposite, in terms of the immediate first house, or opposite, a few houses away from the university?
MR BERGER: I can't be more specific than that.
MR MALAN: But let us then not assume that it's specific in terms of directly opposite the university, as the first house on the other side of the street. It apppears not, it appears it's off Lubatsi Road and the university is not on Pudulogo Crescent. Or is the university also on Pudulogo Crescent?
MR BERGER: Mr Malan, I don't know.
MR MALAN: Okay, thank you.
MR BERGER: I'll take instructions on that, perhaps we can take it further.
MR MALAN: No, I just don't want us to make findings on the basis of responses to the question of being directly opposite and maybe it's a few houses off.
MR BERGER: Do you remember observing a house where Mr Abrahams was supposed to have been living? Was it one of the three houses that you observed?
MR OLIFANT: Well if you actually remind me about a house not far from Lubatsi Road, yes, I do agree with you, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: Alright. And do you recall that you had instructions from Coetzee to determine whether Abrahams was living at that house?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson. If I'm not mistaken about the surname, but I know it could have been Abrahams.
MR BERGER: Yes well you're the person who volunteered the name Abrahams this morning.
MR OLIFANT: That's right yes, I do remember saying so.
MR BERGER: And the Abrahams we're talking about is Mr Urial Abrahams. Now I want to ask you whether you had instructions and you've said yes, if that is the person Abrahams, you had instructions from Coetzee to check and see, is that man living at that house just off Lubatsi.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember that now?
MR OLIFANT: Yes, I do remember saying so.
CHAIRPERSON: No, do you remember that those were your instructions?
MR OLIFANT: Yes, I do remember, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: And in all the time that you observed that house, you never saw Abrahams, is that correct?
MR OLIFANT: Well like I've said earlier on Mr Chairperson, I cannot recall whether I have seen a person in that house or not, because there was a house where I had a problem of seeing the occupant of that particular house.
MR BERGER: Well who did you see at the third house?
MR OLIFANT: At the third house, I think that was Broadhurst if I'm not mistaken, I can't recall properly who was at the third house.
MR BERGER: Why is it that you can only remember seeing Tim Williams, why does that stick out in your memory?
MR OLIFANT: The thing is this, Mr Tim Williams was the most wanted person and every individual ...(indistinct) at the training was insisting: "Do you know Tim Williams, do you know Tim Williams, have you ever seen Tim Williams", I say: "Well, not because I know him clearly, but I once saw him, not literally but, you know ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Why was he such a star?
MR OLIFANT: I believe he and the other member called Kido, they were the machineries.
CHAIRPERSON: Were the?
MR OLIFANT: The machineries. If I may recall, it was Tim Williams and Kido. It's Kido Adams.
CHAIRPERSON: They were the? Just spell that word.
MR OLIFANT: Machineries, you know, the machineries from Botswana, the people who supplied weapons to the cadres.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, the machinery. Okay. They were part of this whole MK cog.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, yes. Moreover, Mr Tim Williams was involved in intelligence.
MR BERGER: I can help you, perhaps, a bit further now. Opposite the university of Botswana, well there's a street along which the university ran and over the road from that street - from the university, there was Pudulogo Crescent. If you can see the picture I'm trying to draw for you. If the street is running here, the university is up here, on the other side there's Pudulogo Crescent.
MR OLIFANT: Well I understand, Mr Chairperson, the way you actually trying to bring in the picture of the place, but I never stayed in Botswana, I just went for that specific reason and from there on I never really wanted to memorise about the place.
MR BERGER: And the house that we're talking about was the third house in Pudulogo Crescent, from the corner of that main road along which the university was situated. So from the corner you counted three houses, the third house down is the house of Mr Abrahams. Do you remember that now?
MR OLIFANT: If you may help me, was there any old motorbike in the yard?
AUDIENCE COMMENT ON QUESTION
MR OLIFANT: Thank you, that's the house.
MR BERGER: Okay, now I can tell you about the vehicles at that house. There was a yellow VW Beetle.
MR OLIFANT: That's right.
MR BERGER: A white Toyota Minibus. Do you remember that one?
MR OLIFANT: ...(indistinct)
MR BERGER: No, if you're not certain, I don't want you just to agree with me.
MR OLIFANT: Really, I'm not certain about all this, but you talk about the motorbike, I remember it was a broken motorbike, you know, standing in the yard. So I think that's enough for ...
MR BERGER: The yellow VW Beetle, you remember?
MR OLIFANT: I can't recall about that.
MR BERGER: And the white Toyota minibus you can't recall either?
MR OLIFANT: No.
MR BERGER: Now, who did you observe at that house? Did you observe anyone?
MR OLIFANT: I'm trying to remember who did I see in that house, but I can't really, you know, so quickly recall about.
MR BERGER: Did you see young children who used to come to that house in the afternoon?
MR OLIFANT: No, no.
MR BERGER: If you had seen young children, you would have reported that back to Coetzee?
MR OLIFANT: Yes, yes, that was my job actually, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: And then that house would have been excluded as a target for the attack?
MR OLIFANT: Well that was remaining entirely to Mr Coetzee to decide whether he was going to attack the house or not.
MR BERGER: But it was a significant fact that you had to report back. If you saw children, you had to report it?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: So you can't remember if you saw anyone at all at that house?
MR OLIFANT: I can't recall, really.
MR BERGER: You see, because that was the house where Mr Michael Hamlyn lived. Now you remember when Mr Visser questioned you this morning you said the name Michael Hamlyn rang a bell?
MR OLIFANT: Yes, I said something of that kind, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: But you don't remember ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: It wasn't tolling, it was tingling.
MR BERGER: But you don't remember observing Mr Mike Hamlyn at that house, do you?
MR OLIFANT: Like I've said to you, before you could even mention the name of Abrahams, I said the name of Abrahams pictured, you know it comes in my memory.
MR BERGER: Indeed you did, yes. But you can't remember seeing Abrahams at the house either. I'm now asking you about Hamlyn.
MR OLIFANT: Well physically it's something different today.
MR BERGER: No, no, no. Mr Olifant, I'm not asking you now whether you recognise Mr Abrahams today, you've already told the Committee that you remember very clearly observing Mr Williams.
MR OLIFANT: That's right.
MR BERGER: And you haven't seen Mr Williams today, have you?
MR OLIFANT: Well no ... only in 1993, we had inside the country - I saw him in 1993, when I went to his home in Jababu(?) and do the searching. That's right yes, that's where I met him.
MR BERGER: Mr Williams?
MR OLIFANT: That's right.
MR BERGER: But you can remember observing Mr Williams in 1985. You have no recollection of observing Mr Abrahams in 1985, is that right?
MR OLIFANT: Mr Chairperson, I said if I may recollect properly, I think I have been at Mr Abrahams' house, or if it's really Abrahams, I wasn't sure. I didn't want to really make it to be sure that it was Mr Abrahams' house, but you know, during cross-examination you actually insisted that it was Mr Abrahams.
MR BERGER: Well I'm talking about the house where you say you saw the broken motorbike, the house close to Lubatsi, the house close to the university.
MR OLIFANT: Ja, but that was not Mr Williams' house, the one next to ...(intervention)
MR BERGER: I know that.
MR OLIFANT: That's right, yes.
JUDGE MOTATA: If I may interpose, Mr Berger. Lubatsi is about 60 kilometres from there, it's just a road leading, one of the roads leading to Lubatsi, in Gaberone. Lubatsi is about 60 kilometres from there.
MR BERGER: I thought the road was called Lubatsi.
JUDGE MOTATA: No, no, the road is leading to Lubatsi. It's got it's name, I don't know.
MR OLIFANT: Yes, it's normally called Lubatsi Road.
MR BERGER: Thank you, Judge Motata.
We're talking about the house which is in a Crescent, just off the road that leads to Lubatsi. The house near the university.
MR MALAN: What is the question, Mr Berger?
MR BERGER: The question, Mr Malan, is in connection with that house, I know it's not the same house as Mr Williams' house, in connection with that house, your evidence is that you have no recollection of observing Mr Abrahams at that house. Is that correct?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, I cannot recall it.
MR BERGER: In fact, you can't recall having seen anybody, man, woman or child, at that house?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: So why does the name Mike Hamlyn ring a bell, however faintly, why does it ring a bell?
MR OLIFANT: Well, ...(intervention)
MR MALAN: Mr Berger, I don't want to interrupt you, but really, is that a fair question? If one has only a faint recollection of maybe having heard a name, would one expect someone to know the reason why one has that faint recollection of maybe having heard a name?
MR BERGER: Well the context might be able to assist. One would recall yes, I have a faint recollection in a particular context.
Or do you have absolutely no idea in what context the name Mike Hamlyn came up?
MR OLIFANT: Well I might have seen it on the newspaper, or after the raid or something like that and you know ...
MR BERGER: Okay. So you have no idea whether that name came up before or after the attack?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, of all these people and houses that you were supposed to observe, were there any white-skinned people?
MR OLIFANT: No, no, there were only - if I'm not mistaken, Mr Chairperson, Tim Williams is a Coloured and if I'm not mistaken, Abrahams was also Coloured, and it was a black person. I can't remember the name.
AUDIENCE COMMENTING LOUDLY
JUDGE MOTATA: I think the Chairman made it quite clear that this is a serious hearing, that we appreciate your presence here, but we don't appreciate, we must say, your interference when the witness gives answers to questions put to him and we would earnestly now say, not go into contempt of these hearings, refrain. If you have anything, please put it to your counsel, let your counsel ask it.
MR BERGER: What about the other name you mentioned, Joseph Malaza? Is that also so vague that you can't recall if that name came up before or after the attack? Would that be fair?
MR OLIFANT: Well, the name of Malaza, it really becomes a bit familiar, but I don't want to say that yes, he's the one, in the meantime he's not one, because it has been a long time.
MR BERGER: Well you see, the reason I ask - sorry, there's a banging sound coming from somewhere. Joseph Malaza lived in South Africa, and the only reason that he was in Gaberone on the day of the attack, was because he ran a small car-hire company and he hired a vehicle to some people who were driving to Gaberone, Botswana. And on the 12th of June he received a telephone call from these people to say that the vehicle had broken down in Gaberone and it was being kept at a compound in Gaberone, and he then went up to Gaberone to try and retrieve this vehicle and he arranged to spend the night with his cousin who was Lindi Pahle, and that's why he was in the house the night of the attack. I'm putting that to you for your comment.
So the name Joseph Malaza, is it a name that could possibly have come up in reports after the attack, and that's why it rings this feint bell in your head?
MR OLIFANT: Well it's possible, I do agree with you Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: If I refer you back to page 18 of the bundle, paragraph 3 - this is now your report-back after you'd been to Gaberone, this is now in May 1985, according to you. You say:
"I reported to Lieut Coetzee and informed him that the houses were used by ANC cadres and that I had identified the ANC cadres from the intelligence briefing that I had received prior to entering Botswana."
Now other than Tim Williams, you are not able to say which ANC cadres you identified as living at these houses, whom you identified back to Coetzee?
MR OLIFANT: Well like I've said to you, Mr Chairperson, I cannot really remember whether in the report I gave to Mr Coetzee, whether I mentioned about seeing people in those other two houses or not.
MR BERGER: Well then why did you say that here in your amnesty application? Why did you say when you submitted your amnesty application, that you remembered briefing Coetzee, that the houses were used by ANC cadres and that you had identified the ANC cadres, from the briefing that you had previously got?
MR OLIFANT: Well one of the cadres was actually Tim Williams.
MR BERGER: Yes, you remember that today?
MR OLIFANT: That's right, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: But today you don't remember telling Coetzee about any other cadres, even if you don't remember their names, you don't remember even telling Coetzee that there were other cadres that you had identified?
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, where are you referring to?
MR BERGER: Page 18, Chairperson, paragraph 3.
Because the intelligence briefing that you had got prior to entering Botswana, am I correct, that was an intelligence briefing from Coetzee?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone)
MR BERGER: Yes, that was before the middle visit, if I can call it that, the visit at the end of May, or in May.
CHAIRPERSON: No, the point I want to understand is that his information that he transferred or transmitted to Coetzee, was really the grounding to confirm the proposed attack, as a proper attack where people have been properly identified and so forth.
MR BERGER: Yes. Is that correct?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
MR BERGER: I don't want to be unfair to you, but are you not saying in paragraph 3 that you told Coetzee that you had identified the ANC cadres who he had briefed you about?
MR OLIFANT: Yes, that's one of - like I've said, Tim Williams is one of them.
MR BERGER: And do you remember telling him about other people?
MR OLIFANT: I cannot recall on that.
MR BERGER: So you might only have told Coetzee about one person, which is Tim Williams?
MR OLIFANT: Well I have said something else about the other two houses.
CHAIRPERSON: Well look, Mr Olifant, on the 11th of December 1997, you remember who you told him about.
MR OLIFANT: Yes, I do remember who I ...
CHAIRPERSON: That it's just three years ago almost, not so?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: It was quite a number of years after the event that you were able to write in an application that on your return from Botswana you were able to confirm that yes, these houses that I had observed, according to your instructions, does in fact fall within the category as houses being used by ANC cadres and that you had identified these ANC cadres from the intelligence briefing that you had received prior to entering Botswana.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: But today you say you cannot recall whether you told him about other people, you're likely to have told him about Williams only.
MR OLIFANT: Well Mr Chairperson, if you may look at my application, there are actually two bundles here, you can see that I was actually trying to recall what happened. They are not precisely the same.
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I appreciate that, it's just that in paragraph 3 on page 18 of your application, it certaily, the import of that paragraph is that you went into Botswana to observe certain houses and people, for the purposes of confirming that those people really stayed in those houses.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And when you returned to South Africa, you went to Coetzee and you were able to confirm to him: "Yes, those houses you asked me to observe are the houses where these people you asked me to look out for, stay". Is that correct?
MR OLIFANT: Mr Chairperson, you're right when you say so, but I can't say yes, that's the thing which I've told him, because some of the things I cannot recall.
MR BERGER: Mr Olifant, is it not that you don't want now to identify the names of people that you passed on to Coetzee? Because the names that you passed on to Coetzee, were people who were not killed in the raid.
MR OLIFANT: Well not because I don't want to disclose that I saw them, or I did not see them, or I gave Mr Coetzee false information.
MR BERGER: No, I'm not suggesting that you gave Coetzee false information, no, I'm not suggesting that at all. Do you know that no-one was killed at Tim Williams' house?
MR OLIFANT: I do agree with you, yes, because it was a mistake from the Security Force.
CHAIRPERSON: What mistake?
MR BERGER: What was that mistake?
MR OLIFANT: The mistake - not all members who went there were members of Intelligence, some of the members were, some of the people were actually normal soldiers who understood nothing about intelligence. Now since they knew for a fact that they had been, you know, given the target, they went next door to ask whether Mr Tim Williams was still living there or not. Now Mr Tim Williams since was a member of Intelligence, he immediately realised that, but who are those people looking for me, I have my codename from my comrades. And that partiuclar night he never slept.
MR BERGER: And so no-one was killed in that house?
MR OLIFANT: No-one was killed.
CHAIRPERSON: But why wasn't the house then attacked? You confirmed that that is the house, you pointed out the house of Tim Williams, why was it - was it attacked?
MR OLIFANT: Yes, Mr Chairperson, it was attacked.
CHAIRPERSON: And nobody was in the house?
MR OLIFANT: Nobody, I believe, that was in the house.
MR BERGER: So on your evidence, you don't know if anyone was killed as a result of information that you passed on to Coetzee?
MR OLIFANT: Well, if I may recollect, Mr Coetzee once commented that it was a mistake from the Security Force.
MR BERGER: What sort of a mistake?
MR MALAN: Sorry, Mr Berger.
Will you not just answer the question. The question was whether to your knowledge, as a result of information passed on to Coetzee by yourself, was any person killed that you know of?
MR OLIFANT: No.
MR MALAN: Not that you know of?
MR OLIFANT: No.
MR MALAN: Thank you, Mr Berger, you may proceed.
MR BERGER: Thank you, Mr Malan.
Now what about the mistake that Coetzee spoke about? Did he elaborate?
MR OLIFANT: Yes, he said that some of the houses, the people who had been on the target list, they are no longer living there.
CHAIRPERSON: Now Mr Olifant, you say you don't know if anybody died as a result of the information you passed on to Coetzee. Do you know if anybody died as a result of the information you passed on to the military people?
MR OLIFANT: Actually, Mr Chairperson, are you talking about the three houses which I ...
CHAIRPERSON: No, look, you were asked now, do you know if anybody died as a result of your activities, including passing on information about people and houses to Coetzee, and you say you're not in a position to say whether anybody died as a result thereof. I want to round it off because that was in respect of Coetzee, are you in a position to tell us whether anybody died as a result of any information you passed on to Military Intelligence, or to the SADF? Are you able to say?
MR OLIFANT: Well wrong people, yes, who died.
CHAIRPERSON: Wrong people?
MR OLIFANT: Wrong people died, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Well we'll come to the wrong people now, I just want to know whether any people died as a result of the information you passed on to the military people.
MR OLIFANT: I'm not quite sure, Mr Chairperson, if I may try to remember whether the right people whom we were looking for, died or not.
CHAIRPERSON: No, we'll come to whether the identity of the deceased or injured people were correct. Earlier you agreed to a proposition by Mr Berger, taht of the houses you pointed out to the military, nobody died. Do you still go by that answer?
MR OLIFANT: Yes, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: I just want to extend on that. Are you able to tell us whether anybody died, rightly or wrongly, at this stage, as a result of information that you passed on to the military people?
MR OLIFANT: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
MR OLIFANT: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell us whom?
MR OLIFANT: I don't know their names, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Were they any people that you were supposed to observe?
MR OLIFANT: No, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: So what information would you have passed on, if you did not have any information about those people?
MR OLIFANT: Mr Chairperson, I never passed wrong information to the Military Intelligence, but I think it might have went wrong you know, during the interim when I went there and when I took the intelligence ...(indistinct)
CHAIRPERSON: No, but you pointed out certain houses to the military people that day, isn't it?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Nobody died as a result thereof?
MR OLIFANT: Well the people whom we were looking for, according to Mr Coetzee, he said no-one died.
CHAIRPERSON: Did any people die within those houses, any of those houses?
MR OLIFANT: Well yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Who?
MR OLIFANT: I'm not sure about their names, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Wrong people?
MR OLIFANT: As claimed by Mr Coetzee that they were the wrong people.
CHAIRPERSON: And they are people of whom you knew nothing? Correct?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR MALAN: Well just before we leave it there, Chairman with your permission, the third house that you observed, you can't remember which house it was, you simply remember it was in Broadhurst. How do you know someone wasn't killed there, if you can't even remember the house? Is it not possible that someone was killed there? I think Mr Berger referred to the house of Hamlyn and he referred to the house of Tim Williams, he did not say that at the third house nobody was killed. He said: "The information you're giving us relates, at this stage", and I took it as the two houses, Mr Berger, where nobody was killed. Do you know whether at this third house, people were killed?
MR OLIFANT: No, I'm not aware of it, Mr Chairperson.
MR MALAN: But you don't know which house it was in any event.
MR OLIFANT: I can't recall it you know, where was the third house situated, but I know it was somewhere in Broadhurst.
MR MALAN: And then just to satisfy my need for information on this, I assume you didn't only pass on to Coetzee information on these specific addresses but you passed onto him other information too that you acquired on other addresses, with earlier visits with the informer. Or did you only provide information on the four targets?
MR OLIFANT: Well with the informer there were actually various houses ...(intervention)
MR MALAN: Yes, which did not relate to these four?
MR OLIFANT: Correct, I ...(intervention)
MR MALAN: That's all I want to know, whether was general other information. I don't want the detail at this stage, and I hope Mr Berger doesn't want it either.
MR BERGER: No but Mr Malan, with respect, I think there might be confusion now.
Because, Mr Olifant, I understood that the information that you passed on to Coetzee, was limited to the information concerning those three houses. Now are you saying that on ealier visits to Botswana, you passed on information to Mr Coetzee about other houses, other than those three?
MR OLIFANT: Ja, but not related to this matter here.
MR BERGER: Not related to this attack?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, yes.
MR BERGER: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON: Before anybody gets further confused, your answer to Mr Berger on that question, was related to this attack, to this incident in Botswana.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, yes it was.
CHAIRPERSON: So that nobody can be confused about that.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Your other information may relate to other attacks, or whatever, but this particular attack on the 14th of June, you are saying, as I understand it, that you are unaware of any deaths that occurred as a result of information that you passed on in relation to this attack?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: But I think you qualified that, Mr Olifant, you said none of the people who were being targeted, in relation to the information that you passed on, were killed during this attack. That's what you said. Am I right?
MR OLIFANT: Yes, I said that.
CHAIRPERSON: That's an additional fact.
MR BERGER: Yes.
But then you said that Mr Coetzee said to you that in certain of the houses where you were observing, the wrong people had been killed.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
MR BERGER: And now the wrong people - because we only know, we don't know which house you're talking about in Broadhurst and neither do you, but of the other two houses, Tim Williams' house, no-one was killed.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
MR BERGER: And Urial Abrahams' house, three people were killed. Three people who were the wrong people - I beg your pardon, not three people, two people, Mike Hamlyn and Ahmed Geer and his wife, Mrs Geer, who was pregnant at the time, she was shot. Now those would be the wrong people, according to your evidence now, am I correct?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, you say after this incident you weren't party to a gathering or any discussion in regard to what happened in that raid, is that correct?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Not even with members of the SADF?
MR OLIFANT: Mr Chairperson, after the raid we all assembled at Zeerust base, not really base, but - I can't recall well, it was at night, whether it was a base or it was a camping site or something like that. All members of Military Intelligence, I'm talking about Generals, were there and senior members of SAP were there, because after a certain General thanked all the personnel, the military personnel, about the - well I would call it success of the work, Mr Coetzee and if I'm not mistaken, Mr Pretorius, all flew to Pretoria. Well I went to - from there on me and Mr Johan, we came back to Johannesburg.
CHAIRPERSON: How did you feel about what happened in Botswana, afterwards?
MR OLIFANT: Well it was terrible.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you feel bad?
MR OLIFANT: Very bad, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Why:
MR OLIFANT: Why, because at the place where we had convened, that was this between Klokweng and Gaberone, there were vehicles which actually were shot at deliberately, just because the roadblock which we had manned, it was unofficial actually to the Botswana Government and we had to, people had to stop, the ...(indistinct) they don't want to have to stop and some of the people ignored us, so we shot them.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, that's one reason why you should feel bad, but I'm talking about the killing and the attacks that occurred in Botswana, how did you feel about those, after the event?
MR OLIFANT: Well, human lives were taken away, Mr Chairperson. Although you can be how much soldier and ...(indistinct), but at the end of the day you do consider the human life is not an easy thing to ...(indistinct)
CHAIRPERSON: Especially if it was in the interest of apartheid.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Then how is it hat you attended this gathering to celebrate what occurred?
MR COETSER: Mr Chairperson with respect, I don't think the witness testified about attending any gathering to celebrate this particular raid.
CHAIRPERSON: If you look at page 19, paragraph 11, right at the foot of the page.
MR COETSER: Yes, that is true, that was the assembly ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. So can we get answer to it then?
MR COETSER: But he hasn't said that he took part in these celebrations, it seems to have been the military celebrations.
CHAIRPERSON:
"After the mission we retreated back to South Africa, where everybody assembled at the Zeerust to celebrate"
what else could it mean, Mr Coetser?
MR BERGER: Perhaps, Mr Chiarperson, one could ask the witness whether he celebrated and in what way. I don't know. He indicates ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Well I asked him a question and if he didn't celebrate he can say so. But that's the import of his application.
MR OLIFANT: Well Mr Chairperson, after the briefing at the assembly, let's say in Zeerust, I was instructed by Mr Coetzee that I should get into the car and go straight to Johannesburg, I'm not going to Hammanskraal.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that your answer to my question?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't feel too bad about what happened, is it not so, you had time to celebrate the successes of this mission?
MR OLIFANT: Well Mr Chairperson, I was not celebrating. Yes, they ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Why is it in your application?
MR OLIFANT: ... the members of, how can I say, the senior officers ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: They celebrated?
MR OLIFANT: ... they were celebrating.
CHAIRPERSON: Then just look at your application, you say:
"After the mission we retreated back to South Africa, where everybody assembled at Zeerust to celebrate"
Unless my English has further deteriorated, that can only mean one thing. I'm giving you an opportunity to explain it.
MR OLIFANT: Well Mr Chairperson, honestly, after I was exhausted, I was hungry, there was food, there was liquor. I remember ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: You were thirsty also.
MR OLIFANT: We ate and I should think that me and Col de Jager, we had some few tots of whisky.
CHAIRPERSON: And you were into the "geselligheid", is it so?
MR OLIFANT: Well not because I was happy, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Well why were you in the "geselligheid" then, if you weren't happy?
MR OLIFANT: Well Mr Chairperson, I had no option, I had to be with the people who ...
CHAIRPERSON: So you had no option but to be happy about the situation?
MR OLIFANT: It was no way, Mr Chairperson, where I had to really celebrate about this situation, because first of all, I knew for a fact that I wouldn't be given credit for that matter.
CHAIRPERSON: And if you had to be given credit for it, will you be happy about it?
MR OLIFANT: I knew for a fact that they wouldn't, at no stage, give me a credit for that matter. You know, I began working with Mr Coetzee when he was a Warrant Officer ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: A what?
MR OLIFANT: A Warrant Officer. And at that stage, after all this work has been done, he was the only person who was being promoted.
MR MALAN: May I just ask you, are you saying that when you returned to that camp base after the raid, you were simply, you felt terrible because of having to shoot at people on the way back, at the roadblock, it didn't particularly worry you that people were killed as an objective of the raid, as the purpose of the raid?
MR OLIFANT: Well ...
MR MALAN: It's a simply question.
MR OLIFANT: I understand, Mr Malan, but ... you always regret after you have done something. You may do things volunatarily, but afterwards you regret, that hey you know - anyway, I have ...
MR MALAN: My question relates to specifically to your state of mind that night after the raid, you weren't agonising about the raid itself. I think that's what you said to us, that's what I heard, but you were worried about people that you shot at when you were stopped at the roadblock. Did I hear you correctly? You said that was terrible, you felt bad.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR MALAN: About having to shoot at people at the roadblock?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR MALAN: Not about the raid in itself?
MR OLIFANT: As well as the raid, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: Thank you, Mr Malan.
But it didn't stop you - let me ask you this, when Coetzee said to you that the wrong people had been killed ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: When did he say so? Let's find out when ...(indistinct)
MR BERGER: Well when did Coetzee say to you that the wrong people had been killed?
MR OLIFANT: That was after, I think after a month or two months.
MR BERGER: Did you feel bad then?
MR OLIFANT: Well, yes I did feel bad, of course.
MR BERGER: But that didn't stop you from going on other operations after that?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, I carried on with my
work.
CHAIRPERSON: Now tell me, before that, before you were told that the wrong people were killed, you were under the impression that the operation was successful, correct?
MR OLIFANT: No, Mr Chairperson, I had ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Did you know before you were told, that the wrong people were killed?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson, through newspaper which I had been reading.
CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't need Coetzee to confirm that wrong people were killed?
MR OLIFANT: Well I was just reading it for myself, Mr Chairperson, and when Mr Coetzee really confirmed about the incident, then I realised that no, something might have gone wrong.
CHAIRPERSON: And before you read it in the newspapers you thought that the operation was successful?
MR OLIFANT: Well the newspaper was also stating that there were wrong people killed.
CHAIRPERSON: Before you read the newspapers, did you think ...(intervention)
JUDGE MOTATA: Let's say when you retreated to Zeerust, after the raid.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: You were under the impression that the operation was fully successful?
MR OLIFANT: Not that I was happy because people were killed ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: I'm not talking about the happiness, were you satisfied that the operation was successful?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And you were satisfied that what you had set out to do or what was set out to be done, was successful? Not so? To kill MK cadres and all who lived in their houses. Correct?
MR OLIFANT: I wasn't satisfied of killing human beings, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: But the operation, you were satisified that it was successful.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And you knew when you went there that that was a distinct possibility?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson, I knew for a fact that people will get killed.
CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you feel bad before you went, that this is what was going to happen?
MR OLIFANT: Well Mr Chairperson, I had no option, I had to really go because I had already been selected.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you want to get out of this whole business? Did you find it repugnant to be party to this apartheid regime, killing people?
MR OLIFANT: Well ...(indistinct) I never really said that ...(indistinct) the other senior officers what we're doing, discussing about this and whatever, others were even you know, recalling the passage of what had happened when they were busy breaking into the doors and how people were crying and all those things.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you trying to get out of your predicament?
MR OLIFANT: As soon as possible.
CHAIRPERSON: Now when you were there in Gaberone watching these ANC cadres, why didn't you go to them and say: "Look here, this is my position, help me out here, I'm supposed to disclose information about you, I'm unhappy about that"? Why didn't you do that?
MR OLIFANT: Oh Mr Chairperson, we didn't have time to even go and look at the house ...
CHAIRPERSON: Come on Mr Olifant, you were there at least a week.
MR OLIFANT: Oh Mr Chairperson, when I went there for a week, I did not know that something similar to this will happen.
CHAIRPERSON: No, you wanted to get out of this predicament, you were unhappy supporting the apartheid regime and having to go give information, gather information and do transmit to the apartheid regime. You wanted to get out of this quagmire that you say you were in, why didn't you then cross the floor and go to the, or to the PAC or to the ANC or whoever you mentioned there, that this other lady had infiltrated, why didn't you go look for help there?
MR OLIFANT: Well Mr Chairperson, I had no option, because should I have gone to the ANC, the ANC would have slaughtered me.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that so?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And if you left the apartheid regime, what would have happened?
MR OLIFANT: They would have followed me and killed me as well.
CHAIRPERSON: I see.
MR OLIFANT: Like it happened to my friends. I'm the only left today.
CHAIRPERSON: So you were between the devil and the deep blue sea?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: Thank you.
Mr Olifant, I want to go now to the time when the attack is about to start. You said there that you were waiting for a certain General to arrive and you said that when this General came, he told you that the operation had been authorised by Cabinet.
MR OLIFANT: Mr Chairperson, there is a mistake, not told me, told us actually.
MR BERGER: Yes, no, no.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: I'm not suggesting that you had a one on one with him. Is that you say you can't remember the General's name, or you were never told the General's name?
MR OLIFANT: I was never been told about his name, completely, I never knew his name.
MR BERGER: So all Commandant Naude said was: "We're waiting for the General to arrive"?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: Then the General arrives by helicopter and he says to all of you: "Cabinet has approved this attack"? Is that what he says?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: He uses the word "Cabinet"?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: You know that Minister Pik Botha says he knew nothing about this raid in advance, he never approved it?
MR OLIFANT: Well Mr Chairperson, we know for a fact that they, nobody of them is prepared to come and testify here today. In order to avoid the Commission, they will always say so.
MR BERGER: Now I want you to be very specific on this because it's important. When the final briefing came for the attack, this is now, you're at Hammanskraal, you've been on your training, you're ready to go, the iformation that you've been given in that training period up and until the time that the attack is about to take place, am I correct that the targets, you were told, the targets had been selected on the basis that in these targets are armed MK soldiers, who are to be killed?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
MR BERGER: So your targets were twofold, your targets were the buildings or the houses and the armed MK soldiers who were living inside?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
MR BERGER: You were not after any other ANC members, only armed MK soldiers?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: What about their families, like wives, children? Or husbands, for that matter.
MR OLIFANT: Well the briefing we got, the houses were being used as - what's the right name, as, you know, to keep arms and to keep cadres in order, whenever they wanted to cross the border into South Africa.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, they were also ...(intervention)
MR OLIFANT: There were no families living into those ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: They were also safehouses?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, that's correct, Mr Chairperson, they were regarded as the safehouse.
CHAIRPERSON: Was that another reason for your observation, to check if they were safehouses?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you have to go back to Coetzee to confirm whether they were safehouses or not?
MR OLIFANT: Well not to confirm it but to say that no, this address, it does exist, I have seen one person or two persons or three persons, or a vehicle in the yard. Whatever I might have seen, I had to disclose it to Mr Coetzee, and that was it.
CHAIRPERSON: So whether it was safehouses or not, wasn't relevant at the time?
MR OLIFANT: Well it was said by Mr Coetzee that those were safehouses, but I cannot confirm whether those were safehouses or not.
MR BERGER: Mr Olifant, did I hear you correctly when you said:
"There were no families living in the target houses"?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: That was according to the information that you had from your observations and the information that you were given in your various briefings, both by Coetzee and by the military?
MR OLIFANT: Well if I may recollect properly, I never - I don't know whether Mr Coetzee told me that there were families living in those houses, or during my observation time, whether I saw kids in the yard, or ladies or whatever.
MR BERGER: Well then why did you say there were no families living in the target houses, where did you get that information from?
MR OLIFANT: Well because I didn't see during my time when I was keeping observation at those particular houses.
MR BERGER: Yes, but when you were about to take part in the attack, were you told there are no families living in the target houses? Or was that just something that you had from your own observation?
MR OLIFANT: When we were just about to do the attack, I said so.
MR BERGER: No, I'm asking you, when you were just about to go on the attack, in your head it was 'we are going to attack houses where we should expect to find armed MK soliders'?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
MR BERGER: The reason for that being in your head is because that's what you were told in your training leading up to the attack, is that correct?
MR OLIFANT: What I was told by Mr Coetzee.
MR BERGER: That's what you were told by Coetzee?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: And was that reinforced during your training by Military Intelligence?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson. In addition to that, why we had so much military personnel, it was to actually, should anything have went wrong with Botswana Forces, will ...(indistinct) be able to, you know, to stand the fight ...(intervention)
MR BERGER: And start a war.
MR OLIFANT: ... for the meantime - well, just to try to prevent, in order to you know, try to pull out from the country and thereon, well we knew for a fact that in Zeerust we had plus-minus 50 to 60 tanks, we had armed vehicles, we had, there were I don't know how many helicopters, of which some of the helicopters, you know, they helped us during the, after the raid when we were actually looking for the right way how to cut to the border and come out, and we had jet fighters ...(indistinct). Well, we knew for a fact that if anything should have gone wrong at that moment, people ...(indistinct) of course, it was war, but we knew for a fact that Botswana would have, Gaberone in particular would have gone into flames.
MR BERGER: Yes, you - all of this preparation was in case the Botswana Defence Force decided to attack you.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
MR BERGER: As well as the armed MK soldiers who you expected to find in the target houses?
MR OLIFANT: Well the number of MK inside the houses, we knew that we would have outnumbered them.
MR BERGER: We were told in the last hearing when you were not here, that if the intelligence showed that there was an MK soldier living with his wife or with her husband, then that house would be removed from the target list, it wouldn't be a target house anymore. Is that also - and of course, the husband or wife was not an MK soldier. Was that they way you understood it?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
MR BERGER: If there were children, the house was scrapped from the being a target house.
MR OLIFANT: Well I think so, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: In fact, if there was anyone else living in that house, who was not involved in military operations against South Africa, that house was removed as a possible target of the attack. Is that correct?
MR OLIFANT: I cannot recollect whether ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, was that evidence in this matter, or another application?
MR BERGER: No, in this matter.
JUDGE MOTATA: Actually I must say in fairness to the witness, we should make him aware that during the gathering of information about the members of MK in Botswana, separate meetings were held, high officials(sic) were held in Pretoria, where the decisions were made, but I don't think this would relate to this witness, definitely not.
MR BERGER: No.
JUDGE MOTATA: Thank you. I just wanted that understanding to the witness.
MR BERGER: No, Judge, it's not that I'm suggesting this witness was involved in that process, I'm just trying to establish that his understanding of who was a target of the attack is the same as the other witnesses who've come to testify, that it was people involved in military operations against South Africa. Not political involvement against South Africa, only military involvement.
JUDGE MOTATA: Thank you, I just wanted the witness to be on the same level as us.
MR MALAN: I think you can take that as established.
MR BERGER: Now, you said that you were requested to assist other groups, now we're talking about SADF soldiers are now in Botswana, this is before the raid and you're going to identify other houses.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: How many groups were there?
MR OLIFANT: Well like I've said, plus-minus we had - if I'm not mistaken, ...(indistinct) there were about 13, plu-minus 13 targets, so each group was consisted by four, five people, four five six people, four, five, depending.
MR BERGER: 13 groups?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, because we had plus-minus, despite the truck which was ferrying the military personnel which went to Botswana, we had over 10 vehicles which went to Botswana from different borders.
MR BERGER: At different times?
MR OLIFANT: At different times.
MR BERGER: And the truck you're talking about was the last vehicle to come through with the military hardware?
MR OLIFANT: Well, I suppose it was the last vehicle which went into Botswana, because I wasn't into that ...(intervention)
MR BERGER: Yes, you were already in Botswana.
MR OLIFANT: I was already in Botswana.
MR BERGER: Can you give us the names of the people, the other people who were in Botswana with you, whether they were in your group or in other groups?
MR OLIFANT: Well I have been meeting some other members prior to this incident, that I knew, two British guys, Mike and Peter.
MR BERGER: Mark who?
MR OLIFANT: Mike and Peter.
MR BERGER: Mike who?
MR OLIFANT: Well the surname I don't know. Well Commandant Naude was actually leading us in Hammanskraal, but he never went in, but Mike and Peter, those were former Rhodesian, what you call ...
MR BERGER: Selous scouts.
MR OLIFANT: Selous scouts, ja. They were in Botswana with us.
CHAIRPERSON: It may not perhaps be Hoare(?), Mike Hoare?
MR OLIFANT: Well Mr Chairperson, those were the only people I knew at the base when we were there, those were the only people, plus one - no, no, there were four. I knew Commandant Naude, I knew Warrant Officer, I forget his name, plus these two gentlemen. That was it.
MR BERGER: Those were the only people whom you knew?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: If you'll just bear with me for a moment. Do you know a person by the name of David Loam? L-o-a-n, David.
MR OLIFANT: No, I can't recall.
MR BERGER: He worked with a Peter and they were both ex-Rhodesian members of the Police Anti-Terrorism Unit. Could that be the Peter that you're referring to?
MR OLIFANT: Well - no, I don't know about, I can't recall about David Loam.
MR BERGER: Do you know where Mike - Mike and Peter, you say you've met recently?
MR OLIFANT: No.
MR BERGER: Oh, I don't know why I had it in my head that you'd spoken to them recently.
MR OLIFANT: Those were the people whom I knew in Hammanskraal base.
MR BERGER: Have you seen them since the attack?
MR OLIFANT: I've even heard about their names. You know, it has been plus-minus 15 to 16 years I'd never seen them.
MR BERGER: Alright. Now you're in Botswana and you're going to one of the houses that you've identified, is that correct? The one that's now on the outskirts.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: The house that you were looking for, was this one of the three houses that you had passed information on, or was it another house?
MR OLIFANT: No, that was the fourth house.
MR BERGER: The fourth house. Do you know who was supposed to be staying at that house, the fourth house?
MR OLIFANT: I can't recall, I cannot recall. And how did the house come into the whole picture, I cannot recall.
MR BERGER: Would you turn to page 19 please, of bundle 1, page 19, paragraph 8. I'll read it to you, don't worry. You see in paragraph 7, the last sentence you say:
"I travelled in a van with a Sergeant from the Reconnaissance Unit at Phalaborwa, into Botswana. The Sergeant and I stayed at the President Hotel and we identified our target during the day."
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
MR BERGER: Who was the Sergeant?
MR OLIFANT: I did not know his name.
MR BERGER: Now in your evidence this morning you said:
"I did not go out during the night"
did I misunderstand you when you said that?
MR OLIFANT: Which night?
MR BERGER: The night of the raid. You said:
"I did not go out during the night"
is my note incorrect?
MR OLIFANT: No, you are wrong there.
MR BERGER: Okay. Then my note goes on to say:
"We did not want to go to any other target. We preferred to leave it alone"
this is the target that you were looking for.
"We asked the General for permission. He said okay."
It's an abbreviated note, so tell me if I've got it wrong. When you went out looking for your target, you say you never found your target.
MR OLIFANT: Okay fine, exactly 12 o'clock the instruction was as follows: "You go between, on the road to Lubatsi, you'll get a truck, you take whatever belongs to you (that is the military equipment) and you get into the vehicle, you go straight to your target". But what happened is this, afeter we had collected our weapons, on our way to the target, since it was dark, we could identify the target, so through the radio we told the Commandant in the area that we are unable to identify the target, what should we do. The Commandant in charge said: "Immediately convene into Oasis Motel and Gaberone and Klokweng", where we were supposed to have met. Then we immediately went there. So we helped the people who were supposed to have manned the roadblock.
MR BERGER: Wasn't it your instruction beforehand, that is something went wrong, you were to immediately return to the point where you had assembled before, immediately prior to the raid?
MR OLIFANT: No, there's no place where we assembled before the raid. The only place which we said that we shall all convene is the, it's between Klokweng border and Gaberone.
MR BERGER: Well let me read to you paragraph 10 on page 19. You say:
"Our instructions were to immediately return to a point where all the miltary personnel convened prior to the operation, in case something went wrong."
MR OLIFANT: Well it's a mistake here. It is a mistake, there's no place where we convened before the ...(indistinct). The instruction was as follows, before we could even leave Pretoria, that the place where we're supposed to meet after the raid, or anything should go wrong, it's immediately, you should immediately go to - well you ...(indistinct) it was Oasis meeting point ...(indistinct)
MR BERGER: Oasis?
MR OLIFANT: Ja, Oasis ...(indistinct), ja.
CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you say it in your statement?
MR OLIFANT: Excuse me, Mr Chairperson, I didn't hear you.
CHAIRPERSON: Why was it not said in your statement?
MR OLIFANT: Well it was a mistake which I never really realised, Mr Cahirperson.
CHAIRPERSON: One doesn't make mistakes like this, it's not a spelling error or a misunderstanding, this is a fact, but yet it crept into your statement. Can you explain that? I may point out to you that these mistakes in your statement are increasing.
MR OLIFANT: Well I do agree with you, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: Mr Olifant, about the R1 500 that you were paid, you mentioned that you were paid a monthly salary of R600, is that right?
MR OLIFANT: Well plus-minus, somewhere there.
MR BERGER: Oh, R650?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: So this R1 500, did it include the R650? In other words, was it ...(intervention)
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson. Yes.
MR BERGER: So there was an R850 bonus?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: And is it correct that the informer, Mapule Sekonyele, she was also paid?
MR OLIFANT: Well, I wouldn't like to elaborate on that point, Mr Chairperson, because she was paid I was not there.
MR BERGER: Okay. Have a look at page 21, paragraph 13:
"We carried out our mission successful and at the end of the mission at least 14 people were killed."
CHAIRPERSON: Page 21?
MR BERGER: Page 24, I beg your pardon.
CHAIRPERSON: Which paragraph?
MR BERGER: 13.
"After the mission we retreated back to South Africa, where we all assembled at Zeerust to celebrate. During our celebration we met some Army Generals. Mapule Sekonyele was paid for her part played during this mission and she then left the ANC and joined the PAC."
MR OLIFANT: Well she was being paid on a monthly basis.
MR BERGER: No, no, no, no, you say she was paid for her part played during this mission.
MR OLIFANT: Maybe, I can't recall it.
MR BERGER: She was paid like you were paid.
MR OLIFANT: Well I was paid - on my side I was paid, as you said it was an extra - I said it was an extra R850 as a bonus, so it was actually part of my ...(indistinct)
MR BERGER: Part of your?
MR OLIFANT: Success.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone) Part of your success?
MR OLIFANT: Success.
MR BERGER: You mean to say it was just good luck for you to get the extra money?
MR OLIFANT: Well I thanked him for giving me extra money actually.
MR BERGER: You thanked him?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) didn't you ask him: "Why, what did I get this money for"?
MR OLIFANT: No, Mr Chairperson, I never asked him that.
CHAIRPERSON: But you went to thank him.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Or is it that you knew why you're getting this money?
MR OLIFANT: Well I didn't want to ask him anything, Mr Chairperson, ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Why not?
MR OLIFANT: Well, I didn't have - I never thought of asking him.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Olifant, I understand the only place where you get money and you don't why is the casino machines. There you know also. But where you get manna from heaven or from the South African Police, surely you want to know why? Not so?
MR OLIFANT: I think Mr Chairperson once heard, if I'm not mistaken that there was a certain word where a junior wouldn't ask a senior ...(indistinct)
CHAIRPERSON: What?
MR OLIFANT: ... because he will say that: "Jy moenie ...(onduidelik) vra nie", ...(indistinct) nie vrae vra nie".
JUDGE MOTATA: Wouldn't that be in terms of instructions given, or when you are supposed to do something, you are supposed to do that and not ask reasons why you've got to do that? The need-to-know basis?
MR OLIFANT: Well it will always depend where do ...(indistinct) ask him things.
JUDGE MOTATA: So with the money you took it the same way?
MR OLIFANT: Well I thanked him and I took the money, that was it. I don't deny the fact that I took the money.
CHAIRPERSON: No, that's of no interest to me. When you received the money from him, you didn't know what's in that envelope. That was your evidence. You discovered that you've got an extra bit of money when you were away from him. Now I want to know why you didn't go, or the next time you met him, why you didn't ask him: "What's that extra bonus for, what's that all about?"
MR OLIFANT: Well I didn't ask ask him, Mr Chairperson, to be honest with you. I never asked him.
CHAIRPERSON: No, I accept that, that you didn't ask him, I want to know why you didn't ask him. Or is it you knew why you got that extra bonus?
MR OLIFANT: Well Mr Chairperson, maybe I knew.
CHAIRPERSON: Don't tell me maybe, did you or did you not?
MR OLIFANT: Well I didn't ask him, that's the only thing that I can say to you, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: Mr Olifant, also to be fair to you, your evidence is also that Coetzee sent you on this mission, is that correct?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: And at the time he sent you on this mission there was no talk about money, is that correct?
MR OLIFANT: No, he never spoke about money.
MR BERGER: Alright. But this bonus of R850, was this the first time that you'd received such a bonus, or did you regularly get bonuses every time you went on a mission?
MR OLIFANT: Excuse me ...
JUDGE MOTATA: Put the mike off please.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Coetser, I'd like to remind you to instruct him that he's under cross-examination. I don't know what he's discussing with you.
MR COETSER: Well if Mr Berger doesn't mind, perhaps it will be of assistance to him ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: I do.
MR BERGER: No, I do, I'm just amazed.
MR COETSER: If the Commission doesnt mind, he wants to ask me something.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible - no microphone)
What do you want to ask your counsel?
MR OLIFANT: Mr Chairperson, something came into my memory. When I went for a week into Botswana, Mr Coetzee gave me only R100 to survive for a week. He said to me: "No hotel, no enough food, you just have to survive. The R100 which I'm giving to you, it's only for transport." Now I do recollect properly that no, why he had given me an extra bonus, it was because when I went to Botswana, he never gave me enough money.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you submit an account to him?
MR OLIFANT: Excuse me, Sir?
CHAIRPERSON: Did you submit an account to him?
MR OLIFANT: I had no - I didn't submit anything, I just told him that: "Mr Coetzee, as you have said that I should not sleep in a hotel, I must just sleep wherever I will be able to sleep", and that was it.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Berger.
MR MALAN: May I just follow on something.
You were asked whether this was the first time that you received a bonus, did you ever receive bonuses at Koevoet?
MR OLIFANT: Well, I would receive any extra money, but not that much which will pass about R500. Not as a bonus, but you know maybe ...(indistinct) this is for telephone, this is for that, this is for expenses, taxis inside the country, or something like that.
MR MALAN: You were regularly paid when you were with Koevoet.
MR OLIFANT: That's right.
MR MALAN: You received a monthly remuneration.
MR OLIFANT: Salary, that's correct.
MR MALAN: The question is, did you from time to time receive money other than your monthly remuneration?
MR OLIFANT: Excuse me, Sir, are you talking about Koevoet or?
MR MALAN: I'm talking about Koevoet.
MR OLIFANT: Yes, there was a bonus, almost on a ...(intervention)
MR MALAN: Yes. So this wasn't the first bonus?
MR OLIFANT: No, no, it wasn't.
MR MALAN: And at Koevoet, the bonuses came after work well done, or whatever?
MR OLIFANT: Every three months there ...(intervention)
MR MALAN: Now the question here is one, and it seems not to be put to you directly, the question is, did you have any contract agreement against a specific payment for participating in this raid? Were you to be paid a specific sum of money for going into Botswana?
MR OLIFANT: No, Mr Chairperson.
MR MALAN: And that's definitely not?
MR OLIFANT: Not, Mr Chairperson.
MR MALAN: At no stage?
MR OLIFANT: At no stage, Mr Chairperson.
MR MALAN: Thank you. Can we leave it there, please Mr Berger.
MR BERGER: Ja, we can leave it.
I want to refer you back to page 24, paragraph 13 ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, are you comfortable leaving it there?
MR BERGER: Well I've been asked to leave it there.
CHAIRPERSON: No well, I'm asking you. I don't want to be faced with any ...(intervention)
MR BERGER: No, it won't be a ground.
Mr Olifant, paragraph 13 page 24, you say:
"During our celebration we met some Army Generals"
Now a little while ago you said that during this celebration, when you had a couple of tots and some food, the other men who had participated in the mission were telling stories about what had happened during the attack. Do you remember that?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR BERGER: Telling stories of how people had cried and people had screemed and people were being shot. Reemmber that?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct.
MR BERGER: Did anyone recount specifics of what had happned in any of those houses?
MR OLIFANT: Well Mr Chairperson, we never really had a literal talking of extactly what happened, a person will just comment a bit of what had happened.
MR BERGER: Okay. Did anybody give any report-back of people in the various houses fighting back as they were being attacked? Shooting back.
MR OLIFANT: No, I cannot remember whether there was any skirmish between the MK and the Military Intelligence.
MR BERGER: To put it bluntly, was there any report from anyone of any armed resistance in any of the attacks?
MR OLIFANT: No.
MR BERGER: Thank you, Mr Olifant, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Coetser, have you got any re-examination?
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR COETSER
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Olifant, as I understand your evidence, that the attack of this evening, through all its plans, were directed at members of MK who presented a direct threat to South Africa.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And the killing of a small boy would not fall in that category, would you agree?
MR OLIFANT: I do agree with you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Now I just need to get this clarified, that those people who were considered a direct threat at South Africa, were MK members who were regarded armed.
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Would that include a person who taxis members of the ANC to the airport and collects them at the airport to take them home?
MR OLIFANT: Well Mr Chairperson, a member of MK will do anything, he will ...(indistinct), he will do anything during his spare time, so I won't really know wehther the person who will be going to the airport ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Yes fine, I'm just talking to clarify this. If this person was an oldish man whose only job was to drive and in this case, at worse for him, he would transport ordinary ANC members to and from the airport in Botswana, would he be regarded as a direct threat to South Africa?
MR OLIFANT: No, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: So he woulnd't fall in the category of the targets that day?
MR OLIFANT: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Now have you joined the Police Force now?
MR OLIFANT: Well that's correct, Mr Chairperson, I've got the rank of an Inspector and I'm still attached to the Police Force.
CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me?
MR OLIFANT: I'm still a policeman, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Which division?
MR OLIFANT: Organised Crime, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: The house in Broadhurst, was that the one of Tim Williams, or did I misunderstand you?
MR OLIFANT: Well Mr Chairperson, I can't really say.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
MR OLIFANT: I cannot recall you know, whether Mr Tim Williams was in Broadhurst or he was in Gaberone North or East.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, you're excused.
MR OLIFANT: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Coetser, have you got any other witnesses?
MR COETSER: No, I don't Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that the end of his application? Are we at the end of the applicants? Mr Berger, are you ready to start?
MR BERGER: Chairperson, I am ready to start, but could I ask that we start first thing tomorrow morning and if you need me I can explain why. The reason is that you'll see from the bundle of statements that we've handed in, one of the witnesses is the Deputy-Speaker of Parliament and she's flying up to be here tomorrow morning and I was hoping that I could finish her evidence as soon as possible, because there's urgent business in parliament that she has to attend to. It's the very last statement.
MR MALAN: Is she to be your first witness?
MR BERGER: She would then be my first witness, yes.
MR MALAN: Can you give us an indication as to how you see the time being utilised, how long will you take with your witnesses?
MR BERGER: I'm going to be very short with my witnesses, because I can tell my learned friends that I'm going to lead them on one or two peripheral things, nothing material, they're going to then confirm their statements as being true and correct and then then they're going to be made available for cross-examination. So it really depends on my learned friends, not on me.
MR MALAN: Thank you.
MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn till 9a.m. tomorrow morning.
MR VISSER: Chairperson, yes it's a bit ...(indistinct), we leave early but sometimes all sorts of things happen on the freeway, if we're not here then it won't be our faults.
CHAIRPERSON: So be it.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
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